Last week, a friend asked me, "Who is Noah Kahan?"
I didn't know.
I mean, I know he is a very popular musician. But I didn't know why because I hadn't heard a note of his music.
Then, last night during a quick social media scroll, I saw the name Jason Derulo and I had the same feeling. Who is this? He's huge, I thought. But why? Again, I hadn't heard a note of music.
If it was 1977, who would Noah Kahan, Jason Derulo, Turnstile and Angine de Poitrine be?
This isn't a knock on these or any artists. I just have a feeling that in 1977, I would have not only known wildly popular artists, I would also know a lot of their music, whether I liked it or not. Today, not so much.
I could probably name another 50 artists just by spending one minute on Brooklyn Vegan's home page. Who are these people? I don't remember being this baffled in 1977 or 1987, for that matter.
48 comments:
Angine de Poitrine are big in prog circles and have a viral video on youtube. Kind of proggy math rock. Just guitar and drums. But the reason they went viral is the costumes they wear. The costumes got people to hear complex instrumental music that they normally would never know about. I just ordered their 2 albums. The other artists mentioned I never heard of
Sorry, I should have been more clear. I know Angine and have listened to their music. But I would love to hear people's ideas about who those four artists equivalents would have been in 1977, if that's even something anyone can say.
All I can say, Sal, is I know the feeling. 😎
Back in 1977 'album rock radio' played new music so we got to hear what was new whether we liked it or not.
The internet is too sprawling for us to be able to keep up with all that's out there that's new.
Anyway something like that, it's too early in the morning for me to ponder this question thoroughly just yet. Good morning. Yawn!
Captain Al
Let me try this.
Let's say you were one of the "Disco Sucks" crowd in 1977. I bet you still knew 25 disco hits. You might have been a loyal fan of Peter Green's Fleetwood Mac, but you still knew why 1977's Mac was playing arenas. You may vehemently hate rap, but you KNEW who Public Enemy and Run DMC were.
Noah Kahan is playing Wrigley Field!
Without record shops, radio and music magazines that I like being available any longer, I discover music via various friends, blogs, and forums that feature music in styles I like or think I might. I never cared about top 40 or AM radio, and my streaming service conveniently allows me to filter new releases by genre, so it’s unlikely I’ll come across those you mention or others that have a broad fan base on TikTok and that ilk. I heard of Noah Kahan via a crossword puzzle clue that I couldn’t answer, but still haven’t listened to his work.
- Paul in DK
Here’s another possible factor: nowadays most people wear headphones in public thus isolating themselves and not sharing whatever they are listening to. It didn’t matter if we wanted to hear the music or not it would enter our ears and thus we would become aware of it.
Also curated playlists limit what we hear. Much less democratic.
This topic is saddening me I Think I’ll put my headphones on. :-)
Captain Al
Okay so pre-internet, pre-streaming, pre-YouTube, we had radio, MTV, rock magazines, American Bandstand, Solid Gold.
Isn't it odd that NOW, everything is at our fingertips, with hundreds of ways to hear and see and read about music, and for some reason, we know less?
The death of MTV playing music videos has a *lot* to do with this. Like it or not, that was a cultural touchstone for many decades in discovering new music (or, rather, the music foisted upon us by the record labels). If you have younger daughters, you'd know who Noah Kahan is. :-)
I hear what you're saying, but my argument...well not an argument, really but...my point is...having young daughters explains knowing who Noah Kahan is NOW. 40 years ago, one didn't need nose piercings and mohawks to know the Sex Pistols, or kids to know who Debbie Gibson was. We knew, even if we didn't listen.
I just don't have a memory of knowing so little about current music back in the 70's, 80' and even 90's, the way I know so little in the 2000s. And I listen to music just as much, if not more than I did 40 years ago.
The other real reason is the death of "Top 40" radio. Everything on the radio is now so segregated into genres, that it's near impossible to keep up with what is current and popular any more unless something really breaks through the zeitgeist . And, honestly, even if "Top 40" radio was still a real thing -- would anybody even listen to it?
Bingo, this is exactly right
i think noah kahn is maybe dan fogelberg? and jason derulo is lionel richie?
Haha. Okay, that's not what I mean.
Who would be headlining stadiums 40 or 50 years ago that would make us ask "Who is that?"
Yanni? Naw, the ads made him known. It's hard to find lists of stadium tours. How about playing MSG in the 1970s? I'm sure you Stray Dog, but I didn't know them or Bulldog, an Argentine punk rock band. The link is fun. You can go to any year and see all the acts at MSG. https://www.concertarchives.org/venues/madison-square-garden--4?page=2&year=1972#concert-table
In 1972 Bulldog was an offshoot of the Rascals, certainly too early for punk.
But while not what you asked for, I think the points by Captain Al and Shriner and so on are all germane. No radio, no MTV and a LOT more music than ever before. it's no surprise stuff can be really popular for some and remain unknown to others, even hardcore music fans. I mean, I finally played a song by Kahane because like you I thought, Who the hell is that? But it did nothing for me. Didn't even finish the album. But unlike massive music fans, I am sure the phenomenon of being clueless about something that is huge in other circles is very familiar to most and not even an age thing. Lots of women are deep into romantasy but to most of us Fourth Wing and A Court of Thorns & Roses are titles that mean nothing. But they are HUGE.
My bad. Bulldog is also the name of an Argentine punk band but they came later. I had to look up who Bulldog was and they came up, not that group.
well okay so I wouldn't have been baffled because I was into all things music I tended to be aware of most bands and or artists and had at least a vague idea of what they were about (albeit sometimes wrong as addressed later) but on the other hand awareness did not make me listen to those people. Whereas today I don't even pay as much attention although I hear a lot of the names I'm usually not interested enough to go seek it out. Unless of course you recommend it. That being said I didn't really listen to 38 Special or a bunch of other southern rock bands or whatever that Seals and Crofts knock off was England Dan something or other and whoever. And much to my later shame a lot of the disco / smooth soul bands of that era good example would be the Sylvers whose bass player is and was amazing and my loss. Hope that answers your question.
Sal, this is an excellent thread and probably the most salient discussion about pop music. I know of Kahan because my daughter's nineteen. I'm still bamboozled as to how he's touring stadiums this summer (she's catching him at Oracle Park in SF next month). I understand how atomized our culture is but still, why don't we hear his music everywhere? That said, Bruno's touring football stadiums and I barely hear his music in public. I often tell my students that I never bought a single Pearl Jam or Nirvana album in the early 1990s because I didn't need to; those cd's were blasted out of every other dorm room or apartment in my community for years on a daily basis, so whether or not I even wanted to listen to grunge, I did every day...
Poitrines 1977 equivalent would have been the Residents
No. Not what I am asking. I don't want similar bands. Residents and Poitrine wear costumes. That's it. That's where the similarity ends. Residents had a cult following. They did not explode or sell out of first run vinyl within days, or sell out concert venues within seconds.
Okay, I'll try this one last time.
It's 1977, Pink Floyd and Led Zeppelin are selling out multiple nights at MSG. Everyone knows who they are. Everyone! The music is inescapable. Fan or not, you know it. If it was 1977 and Cold Shoulder sold out multiple nights at MSG, THEY would be the equivalent.
It goes back to the suits you mentioned a while back. The suits used to open the tap and give us a taste in portions we could digest. Now, there's no one at the gate an the valve is fully open and instead of a tap we have a firehose. There's just too much coming out all at once. Look at the upcomingvinyl.com site every week. There's hundreds of new titles and that's just vinyl. Add to that all the streaming that's added and it's impossible. I'd like to see the numbers on Noah Kahan et al. I'm sure they're not what we would consider big numbers. The market is super fractured and with the exception of people like Taylor Swift , Olivia Rodrigo, Sabrina Carpenter, etc I bet the numbers are not that staggering,
It must be places like X or Facebook. They are too vast for anyone to keep track of.
Captain Al
I'm not sure there is an equivalency. Your point is correct. We're not following the internet stars that 19 year olds are into. We're clueless. You need a bunch of music minded kids to "friend" on social media. Not too long ago I found Vulfpek, a jazz-lite/rock/pop jam band. They were mildly interesting. When I researched them they had a live record recorded at a sold out Madison Square Garden. WTF? I get most new music info from you, Simmels, several other blogs, Mojo magazine (on Libby), Qobuz weekly emails. My old close music buddy is strictly into jazz these days. "NOW, everything is at our fingertips, with hundreds of ways to hear and see and read about music, and for some reason, we know less?" Yes, and there's actually more out there than ever before. If you dig down the streaming service, there's more than you, I , or any one person could keep up with, and some (small?) portion is good stuff we will never hear. Now where did I put my copy of Moby Grape '69?
I concede, as I’ve found no equivalent. Note: MSG concert attendance capacity is <20,000. The previously unknown to me Noah Kahan is doing stadium shows with attendance capacity of 30,000-50,000 plus. And then, often back2back shows. That’s crazy!
And I’ve still not listened to him.
Many good points shared. Thanks
Cleveland Jeff, you lent your copy of Moby Grape 69’ to me! I’ll return it next week!
Captain Al
this guy Noah is a monster -
2026 sold 1 million tickets
4 nights Fenway Park sold out.
All I can say is jeezus
Captain Al- There isn’t any chance I would let you borrow it. I haven’t even evaluated your turntable set-up or inspected your cartridge. But sure, if everything is in order .
I just listened to a tune of Noah's on Youtube. He uses autotune which is a deal breaker for me. Can't any modern vocalist actually sing?
I think we just live in a very very fractured media environment, especially compared with 1977. Even the underground scene in the US didn't really become a thing until the 1980s. Now people can fill stadiums and I've never heard of them.
Couple things:
(1) Nowadays, I'm tending to discover new-to-me (and yet appealing-to-me) music on the soundtracks of various streaming shows. I sit there with my phone at the ready in case I want to Shazam something that happens to catch my ear during those few seconds that it's on.
(2) I'm having a hell of a time trying to answer the original question on my own recognizance. For what it's worth, , I tried pitching a couple of different prompts at Claude ai, and here, lightly edited, is the most recent round of results:
[Who were some rock bands in the 1970s and 1980s which had such sizeable followings that they headlined at very large venues and yet were considered obscure (or not at all household names) by rock music audiences more generally?]
This version pushes toward genuine obscurity — bands that could sell out huge venues within their own subculture, yet a typical rock fan today (or even then) might never have heard of them at all.
Jam-band/cult touring circuit — massive draws, near-invisible to mainstream rock audiences
The Grateful Dead themselves are the obvious exception that proves the rule, but bands adjacent to that scene — New Riders of the Purple Sage, Old and In the Way — drew big crowds on the same circuit while staying totally obscure outside it.
Little Feat (mentioned earlier) belongs here too: could fill big venues on reputation and live intensity alone, virtually unknown to casual rock listeners.
Christian rock — some of the largest "invisible" audiences in music
Petra and Resurrection Band (Rez Band) played to enormous crowds at Christian festivals (Cornerstone Festival drew tens of thousands) throughout the late 70s and 80s, essentially unknown outside evangelical circles despite genuine stadium-scale crowds.
Larry Norman – hugely influential and drew big crowds within Christian music, virtually unknown to general rock audiences.
Regional/scene-specific giants
Molly Hatchet, Blackfoot – huge Southern-circuit arena draws in the late 70s, largely forgotten or unknown outside that regional scene nationally.
The Outlaws – similar story, big Southern rock arena draws, minimal broader recognition.
Point Blank, 38 Special (early years before crossover) – same pattern.
Prog/art-rock cult acts with surprisingly large but bounded audiences
Gentle Giant – devoted, sizable touring audience in the US and UK through the 70s, essentially unknown outside prog circles.
Renaissance – actually had a US hit ("Northern Lights") and could draw large crowds, yet remains almost entirely unknown to general rock audiences today.
Utopia (Todd Rundgren's band) – decent-sized arena/theater draws, largely a footnote despite Rundgren's own fame.
Metal/hard rock scene giants invisible outside metal
Manowar – could fill large European venues and had a fanatical global cult following, but remained (and remains) essentially a punchline or unknown outside metal circles.
Twisted Sister – years of enormous club/theater draws on Long Island/tri-state area (drawing thousands nightly before their major-label breakthrough) while being unknown nationally until 1984.
Y&T, Riot – large US arena/theater draws within the hard rock/metal scene, basically unknown outside it.
International giants totally unknown in the Anglophone world
Santana aside (too famous), bands like Trust (France) or Bap (Germany, singing in Kölsch dialect) filled large venues domestically while being completely unknown to English-language rock audiences.
Kraan, Novalis – part of the German "Krautrock"-adjacent scene, large domestic followings, virtually unknown outside Germany.
The common denominator here is stronger than in your earlier questions: these acts . . . existed almost entirely inside a subculture (religious, regional, generic, national) with its own venues, media, and audience, so "general rock audiences" quite literally never encountered them, no matter how big they got within their own world.
I sincerely appreciate the leg work, but I have to disagree with almost all of this list.
I'll give you the Christian rock culture.
But I think there is a big difference between a band having a huge following in certain regions versus bands popping out of nowhere and selling out stadiums?
Maybe all the readers here are just older now and have given up keeping their fingers on the pulses of anyone's but their own. But all of the bands mentioned are KNOWN!
Manowar
Y&T
Twisted Sister
Riot
Molly Hatchett
The Outlaws
38 Special
All had huge MTV hits.
Unless I am misunderstanding something here, this is NOT the same thing.
Gentle Giant? Utopia?
Not the same thing.
Little Feat was played on rock radio constantly. We all knew who Little Feat were.
Okay Sal, as a transplanted northerner living in the land of cotton - you just hit on some of my favorite bands -
Little Feat,ell George - The Outlaws, Huey Thomasson
Crab you forgot both Marshall Tucker, Charlie Daniels & Skynard.
Charlotte auditorium was always sold out. Spartanburg - New Riders, Commander Cody, Wet Willie, sold out
In my day Fairport Convenvention, perhaps one of the most influential Celtic/English sometimes electric bands of the day, just ask Robert Plant. On their own were lucky to fill a 1500 person gig but their influence still heard today
Sal,
The more I reflect on the comments right here in this discussion thread, including what you've just said, the more fully I grasp that we're not in the same world (by which I mean "media environment") as we remember from the 70s and 80s. So it's possible, indeed likely, that there is no direct parallel, to be drawn between the situation of a Noah Kahan or an Angine de Poitrine and the situation of whoever it is we might try nominating as a precursor.
The point I'm making simply goes back to the notion of a fragmented media market. I've now glanced at the backstory for Noah Kahan (someone I'd never previously heard of). It turns out that this person's first single initially racked up 9 million streams, and that the title track for his first album earned more than 60 million streams even BEFORE the rest of the album was released.
So, at least in the instance of Noah Kahan, we have someone whose songs had been heard millions upon millions of times prior to his beginning to sell out stadiums and so on. It's just that, in today's fragmented media market, his millions of listeners never happened to include us.
By contrast, can you imagine there being anyone in 1977 or 1987 who could have gotten heard, say, 10 million times WITHOUT the likes of us eventually noticing? Such a person would have been played on the radio continually, and would have shown up on TV more or less every day of the week, and would of course have been required to jump through all the hoops and make all the traditional music industry rounds. Under such circumstances, to borrow from that famous Auden poem, "we should certainly have heard."
Today, though, an artist can build up a following of millions, with you or I left none the wiser unless somebody's daughter or whoever chances to bring it up at a moment when we're around.
I think we know less, because there is so much more to know. Back in 77, how much did we really know about music outside of English speaking countries? Now, thanks to the internet and stream services, you literally have "world" music at your feet - not the genre, but music from anywhere. Its overwhelming and at time, may force you into retreating to things that are more accessible to your tastes.
I think that there were fewer bands and the recording costs were costlier and prohibitive. The Record companies were curators and chose who made the cut. Now it is cheap, can be much more direct and you can tic-toc to your algorithm and bypass the rest.
"By contrast, can you imagine there being anyone in 1977 or 1987 who could have gotten heard, say, 10 million times WITHOUT the likes of us eventually noticing?"
That's my point exactly. This is what I ask in the post itself and it's what I've been asking in the comments. Who is the equivalent? It seems the answer is no one.
It happens in other areas for me. Video games come out and sell $400 million worth of copies in their opening week and I've never heard of them. Three recent movies included talent that was hugely viral online and extremely well known with a massive fan base. The sci-fi horror flick "Iron Lung" came from Markiplier, an online dude who has been turning out videos with millions of fans and raising his game until he spent $3 MILLION of his own money to self-fund and star in his movie and hoping to get it on the big screen and demand was so huge it opened on like 3000+ screens and grossed $38m with no advertising. I'd never even heard of the "Backrooms" online phenomenon and the dude spins it off into a movie that is over $350m worldwide. Ditto "Obsession" (a really good movie), whose director also had a huge online following and everyone knew him and I was like "who." I mean, I'm supposed to know what's hot in movies just like all of us here are into music. I mean, Eslaban Armado debuts in Billboard Top 10 with new album and is already huge and I thought, "Who that?" Amy Grant was a good example, but those are genres maybe we don't expect to know. BTS isn't a good example anymore but other K-Pop bands and Japanese pop groups are huge here and playing big shows and I"d never heard a note. But yeah, Noah Kahan is huge in a genre we should know and he is invisible to us. It's not getting old, though that's a factor I guess. It's all the stuff others have mentioned. Listening is more atomized than ever before.
Just now reading this and man oh man, this is the most pertinent music discussion I've read in a long time. Another reason to cherish BW.
I was 17 in 1977. Music was my lifeblood. I was listening to Springsteen, Dylan, Van Morrison, Neil Young, The Ramones, The Clash, Led Zeppelin, Queen, Elvis Costello, Allmans, Marshall Tucker, Todd…I devoured every issue of Rolling Stone, Creem, Circus, - I visited my local record shop twice a week to check out new releases and paw through the used bin. I stopped by the library every other week to read Billboard and The Village Voice. Watched Don Kirshner and the Midnight Special weekly. Kept my radio tuned to the most ‘progressive’ local rock station. There was a finite number of avenues for me to discover and listen to new music. But to answer your question, no- at the time, I doubt there could have been an artist selling out stadiums that I would not have been aware of. Now, with the advent of streaming, Tik Tok, YouTube, Instagram, podcasts, my choices are virtually unlimited. As the number of choices has multiplied, my ‘sphere of awareness’ has shrunken proportionately. I’m trying to keep up- at 66, I’m still seeking new music, new thrills, but there are too many outlets available. It doesn’t help that Instagram and Spotify algorithms push me to the same genres and artists- Replacements, Tom Waits, Iggy, Dwight Twilley, Stones, Roxy Music that I’m already familiar with. There’s a lot of music out there- tons of good music- but as the saying goes, ‘you don’t know what you don’t know.’
Radio in 1977 existed to deliver music with a few commercials, now radio exits to deliver advertising with very few bits of music. Way back then we still had some " I am in it for the art" vibe, now it is " I am in it for the money". I do not know these acts, but feel as though they have delusions of adequacy. They make money and POOF - gone. No staying power.
The blues is life!
Did I listen to pop music because I was bored?
or
Was I bored because I listened to pop music?
I live in the Fenway neighborhood of Boston. I had never heard of Noah before last week. He played four sold-out nights at Fenway Park. During the day, there were lines at least a mile long just to buy crazy expensive merch, with people waiting for hours in 100-degree heat and humidity. There were a lot of young woman in short skirts and cowboy boots. Pretty nuts.
I think it's pretty simple. One, no more monoculture. Two, we (at least me) are old. Don't discount the latter factor. In the 1960s and 1970s, my parents bought records (Gordon Lightfoot, Carpenters, Simon & Garfunkel, Herb Alpert, Burt Bacharach) and listened to AM radio (proto-adult contemporary). They would have known who the Beatles and the Rolling Stones were (the equivalent today of, say, Taylor Swift and Billie Eilish?) but I'm pretty sure they would have drawn a blank if you mentioned Led Zeppelin or Pink Floyd or Queen. You could be into music then and not know huge bands, but you were probably in your forties.
Bruce H.
Bruce H.
Since 2018 and an appearance on Colbert, multiple appearances on all the late shows. Since December 2023, two time SNL Musical Guest. 2023, he’s collaborating with artists like Kasey Musgraves, Post Malone, and Brandi Carlisle (all artists in my algorithm) on his previously released originals. 2024 Sea.Hear.Now Festival Headliner (with Springsteen and the ESB) - The Black Crowes opened. NYT profile. NPR Tiny Desk Concert. Rolling Stone rave review.
With all that exposure, it was a conscious decision on my part not to pursue his music with even minimal curiosity or urgency. I’ve searched new music on far less. Victim of unfair generalization. But, your comments were enough. Thanks for that :) Dude can write some hooks. And now he’s been turbocharged.
“Dial Drunk” w/ Post Malone (I see this song being included in any future Bourbon Saturday Nights) :: https://youtu.be/tGVRsIDNuKU?is=Ym5a3vCHgcnmgP9x
“She Calls Me Back” w/ Kasey Musgraves :: https://youtu.be/xy2SPd3PQf4?is=3ZRoIdj2wG-5Lzt8
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