As I listened to The Who's "Quadrophenia,"
savoring every massive bass lick by John Entwistle, I got to thinking about a few friends who have on
several occasions helped precipitate a twitch by offering up comments like,
"I won't listen to anything after The Who Sell Out," or, "I gave
up after Zeppelin II," or, "Bowie lost me after Hunky Dory." A real favorite was an old customer who claimed to hate Bruce Springsteen and would recite this mantra every time he happened to be in the shop while Bruce was on the stereo.
"I wasn't born in Jersey. I didn't work in a factory. I don't like cars. I don't like the beach." Then he'd buy an Otis Redding CD and I'd ask, "Were you born in Georgia? Are you black? Were you ever in a plane crash?"
"I wasn't born in Jersey. I didn't work in a factory. I don't like cars. I don't like the beach." Then he'd buy an Otis Redding CD and I'd ask, "Were you born in Georgia? Are you black? Were you ever in a plane crash?"
At
first, I thought it was generational, as most of the comments came from people
10-15 years older than I was. This unpleasant parade of "been there/done
thats" made little sense to me, and mostly just fired me up.
While I was happy for those
friends who got to see the Stones with Brian Jones, or any number of shows at the
Fillmore, it didn't quite add up to me, that these music lovers who I
respected, could toss off Zeppelin's "Physical Graffiti" or the
Stones' "Black & Blue," just because...well... it mattered more
THEN. What was it they weren't hearing, or dubiously choosing not to hear in
such spectacular records as "Houses Of The Holy," or "The Who By
Numbers?" Was I hearing different records because my first show at the
Academy Of Music in New York was after they changed the name of the place to
The Palladium? Why would you love the early records of a band, only to then not
have any interest in the later records? It's probably not about "liking" versus "not liking" at all, and most likely has little to do with the music. It's got to be something deeper.
As another friend pointed out, there are just as many who are 15 years younger, who possess that same thinking, opting for only the first three "good" R.E.M. albums, dismissing work such as "Out Of Time" and "Automatic For The People," as if they were tossing away mealy tomatoes.
I have a buddy in a slightly famous band, a few years older than me, who I can always count on to point out how everything sucks except for the few things he loved when he was 16. The first two Cheap Trick albums, the first two Zeppelin albums, and little beyond. Whatever you bring to the table is a joke to him because it cannot compare to the first two Aerosmith albums, or the time before bands ever learned to play, write, and produce. (You know, like those crazed Replacements fans who loved how they'd show up drunk for their gigs, play out of tune, and barely get through any songs. Rock and roll? Hey, I love The Replacements. I just don't like fuck-ups.)
As another friend pointed out, there are just as many who are 15 years younger, who possess that same thinking, opting for only the first three "good" R.E.M. albums, dismissing work such as "Out Of Time" and "Automatic For The People," as if they were tossing away mealy tomatoes.
I have a buddy in a slightly famous band, a few years older than me, who I can always count on to point out how everything sucks except for the few things he loved when he was 16. The first two Cheap Trick albums, the first two Zeppelin albums, and little beyond. Whatever you bring to the table is a joke to him because it cannot compare to the first two Aerosmith albums, or the time before bands ever learned to play, write, and produce. (You know, like those crazed Replacements fans who loved how they'd show up drunk for their gigs, play out of tune, and barely get through any songs. Rock and roll? Hey, I love The Replacements. I just don't like fuck-ups.)
One night shift at the shop, a friend stopped in for some music and a good chat. A few of us, staff and customers, just happened to be discussing favorite concerts, you know, the usual record store fare. I offered up Elvis Costello's five night run on Broadway in 1986 and Rickie Lee Jones at Pier 84 in 1982, for starters. One customer mentioned a Talking Heads show from 1980. My friend said, "Six years ago, in a small pub outside of Dublin, I saw these two 80 year old guys, one playing a bodhran and one playing a tin whistle, seriously the best night of music I have ever seen." He was serious. I laughed in his face. It's not that I didn't believe he truly loved that experience. It was his unwillingness to play the game. It's as if he was incapable of saying something relatable.
A similar situation happened at a job 15 years earlier, where on a slow holiday weekend, we all sat around with nothing to do and discussed our favorite movies while getting drunk on tall boys. "Citizen Kane." "Rear Window." "The Godfather." Then, Jay from Green Bay said, "The Return Of Martin Guerre."
"WRONG!"
He asked me if I had seen it. I had and I loved it. But if you're discussing all time favorite movies in 1983, you can't pick a movie from 1982. You just can't without me thinking you are full of shit, or trying too hard.
He asked me if I had seen it. I had and I loved it. But if you're discussing all time favorite movies in 1983, you can't pick a movie from 1982. You just can't without me thinking you are full of shit, or trying too hard.
We are all full of shit. Some more than others. But no one is off the hook.
Another guy is an amazing
music loving guitar player who's about 23 and LOVES the post-makeup era of
Kiss. He doesn't care that it's the part of their career where the rest of us
had walked away. It's where he came in, so it's the era that feels like his own
pure joy of discovery, before he got old and cynical, or knew that hack
songwriters were crafting calculated hits for a floundering band. Shorn of
context, he sees "Lick It Up" as classic Kiss, for the joy of his
discovery it evokes. I see Gene Simmons acting in "Runaway." (I'd
like to add, I don't understand the people who love The Ramones but show such vitriol for Kiss. They both play excellent, boneheaded rock and roll. Lighten
up.)
No one would see the sense in only wanting writers who hadn't learned to write, or architects whose buildings were based only on their earliest ideas. I think musicians may be exciting in their first years, and as the cliche goes, they have had their whole life to write their first album's songs. Elvis Costello is exciting on his first albums, but I'd argue that you miss out if you never even listen to the mature writing of his later work. I don't trust people who claim they love music but refuse to embrace Costello's work with Burt Bacharach or his most recent trifecta of brilliant albums, "Hey Clockface," 'Look Now," and "The Boy Named if," simply because they don't rock like "Pump It Up." Or worse, dismissing all Elvis once Bruce Thomas got sacked.
I think it's often false and empty to ascribe your own guesses on the motivation for people disagreeing with you about works of art. Sadly, I find myself doing that very thing, more often than I'd care to admit. But if I had to try to guess, I always felt like it's that person's own innocence and unjaded reaction to those early formative musical impacts that they fetishize, and they cannot allow themselves to like or even be open to the possibility of liking anything new, or anything that doesn't fit into that pre-conceived narrative they see themselves in.
I know I'm supposed to feel obligated to like Bon Iver, but I don't. I do feel obligated to go back and try again after each new 5 star review. To decide that nothing after the Stones' "Exile" or The Who "Sell Out" is worth listening to in a world where the alternative is being force-fed Bon Iver or Sabrina Carpenter, or listening to Zeppelin I and II for the rest of your life because nothing else is as pure, is losing a golden opportunity. To me, "Some Girls" is a demonstrably better album than any Bon Iver CD, but because it came out after we collectively decided the Stones had grown tired, we'd rather close our ears to its possibilities and circle our wagons around the music of our youth, secure in the feeling of innocence and sense memory it provides.
No one would see the sense in only wanting writers who hadn't learned to write, or architects whose buildings were based only on their earliest ideas. I think musicians may be exciting in their first years, and as the cliche goes, they have had their whole life to write their first album's songs. Elvis Costello is exciting on his first albums, but I'd argue that you miss out if you never even listen to the mature writing of his later work. I don't trust people who claim they love music but refuse to embrace Costello's work with Burt Bacharach or his most recent trifecta of brilliant albums, "Hey Clockface," 'Look Now," and "The Boy Named if," simply because they don't rock like "Pump It Up." Or worse, dismissing all Elvis once Bruce Thomas got sacked.
I think it's often false and empty to ascribe your own guesses on the motivation for people disagreeing with you about works of art. Sadly, I find myself doing that very thing, more often than I'd care to admit. But if I had to try to guess, I always felt like it's that person's own innocence and unjaded reaction to those early formative musical impacts that they fetishize, and they cannot allow themselves to like or even be open to the possibility of liking anything new, or anything that doesn't fit into that pre-conceived narrative they see themselves in.
I know I'm supposed to feel obligated to like Bon Iver, but I don't. I do feel obligated to go back and try again after each new 5 star review. To decide that nothing after the Stones' "Exile" or The Who "Sell Out" is worth listening to in a world where the alternative is being force-fed Bon Iver or Sabrina Carpenter, or listening to Zeppelin I and II for the rest of your life because nothing else is as pure, is losing a golden opportunity. To me, "Some Girls" is a demonstrably better album than any Bon Iver CD, but because it came out after we collectively decided the Stones had grown tired, we'd rather close our ears to its possibilities and circle our wagons around the music of our youth, secure in the feeling of innocence and sense memory it provides.
It's hard to not react
strongly when hit with such cynicism towards anything we love, but what
confounds me is how it never seems rational. One friend continues to show disgust for the same two or three artists he knows I love by spouting the exact pre-written insults he first used on me 30 years ago, and on others 50 years ago, while not actually listening to the music made by these artists with any depth or concentration since 1972. Or the friend who can't stand the first Fountains Of Wayne album, but loves their
follow-up as if it was a completely different band. Or the friend who has taken a stand against a universally beloved band based on one less than ideal experience 35 years ago, which again, is based on nothing since. My friend has basically climbed too long and too high on the Everest of "I don't like that band" that it might seem impossible for him to head back down and say, "Alright, I'll give that band a chance." They don't owe me
an explanation, but boy, somedays, I'd sure like one. I've always felt that
disliking something because it's popular is actually slightly worse than liking
something because it IS popular. It's more trendy, and seems even more based in
fear, and therefore fake. This could explain Bon Iver's popularity. It may owe
more to wanting to belong, than to actually enjoying the music. (I'm talking to
you too, Fleet Foxes.)
Another friend is so laughably pompous and contrary you could actually hear his bones break when he proclaims that The Beatles and the Rolling Stones are boring, or that Brian Wilson is overrated. Then, as a bonus gift, he pontificates over the brilliance of James Chance & The Contortions and Alan Vega. Stop trying so damn hard! There's nothing wrong with being good at your instrument, or actually having the ability to create memorable pop music. Lo-fi shouldn't be a badge of honor. The Velvet Underground did it and perfected it. That shouldn't be license to deliberately not try. Wear a fucking orange t-shirt once in a while.
In the 1980 Louis Malle film "Atlantic City," written by John Guare, Burt Lancaster's character says to the Robert Joy character, a young man who'd just seen the ocean for the first time, "It used to be really something. You shoulda seen the Atlantic Ocean in those days." That's a great actor in a great movie by a great director, late in their careers, evoking that feeling, somewhere beyond nostalgia, in which we all feel the nagging feeling that something has slipped away from the world, something we seemed to see so clearly in our youth, and I think that something was our own ability to each unabashedly feel moved by these pieces of art that made us who we are. They made us feel deeply then, and they allow us to access those deep feelings today, by calling them back up within us in a song, a movie, or a band before they learned to disappoint us. But I could be wrong. I saw "Atlantic City" in a theater when it came out in 1980. Man, you shoulda seen movies in those days.

47 comments:
As the greaser in AMERICAN GRAFFITI says to Mackenzie Phillips — “I hate that surfin shit. Rock n Roll’s been all downhill since Buddy Holly died.”
Seriously, Sal — great piece. Have I ever told you you’re a great writer? 😒
Bravo...well said.
"Were you ever in a plane crash?"
That's fuckin' funny. I wish I'd been there to see the look on that guy's face.
Great work, Sal. I would have enjoyed it even more if I hadn't had the feeling that sometimes you were talking about me.
Today I'm going to give those later Elvis C and Bowie albums a re-listen.
Well done you, sir! Most entertaining. :)
I always wonder if there's a correlation between people who refuse to listen to any new music and conditions like Alzheimer's or early-onset Dementia. It's like some people's brains just get stuck (or filled up) and they can't just absorb any more information.
My brother listens to the same music and artists on his Sirius channel made for people who just want to hear the music they've already heard before. Of course, he doesn't have opinions or listen to new stuff at all, so he wouldn't even know enough to say "Jimmy Buffett hasn't been the same since Son of a Son of a Sailor. Never should have left ABC for MCA!"
People often wear the same clothes and have the same haircut they had in high school or college or whenever they found their identity. (Exceptions abound, of course.) And most people just love the music from when they were 16-22 years old. We're lucky that we can care so much and still get excited by music long after most people found their ten or so albums and stuck to them for life.
I think the Burt Lancaster quote captures this perfectly. They're not commenting on the music or the band: they're commenting on the passage of time. The ocean isn't less exciting now, as Lancaster obviously knows. It's a wry amusing comment because it acknowledges what he really misses: his youth.
But listen, there is some real truth in Elvis (The Presley) being less interesting ever since that Dutch Dries started poking his finger in.
And dear Shriner, you'll only be 15 once. So the impact that world of music/films/art gives you stays forever. I hate most modern music, that is commercial music from 2000 onwards. I listen to a lot of music from now, but when I hear that music from then again I feel something else. I guess for those who came after me and were 15 in 1990 House/Techno or Hip-Hop/Rap or Nu-Metal etc and they will not understand The Sex Pistols like I do.
Yeah, anonymous. "Were you ever in a plane crash?" made me laugh out loud too.
While I could comment on the topic, I am not sure i can add anything meaningful. I can, however, give props to your great writing. Truly awesome.
Brilliant. I get annoyed with people at shows who immediately dismiss or get bored when a band plays new songs, shouting "play your hits."
I admit there are bands I love who have later albums that leave me feeling underwhelmed, like the most recent Crowded House album, for example. But I still respect their efforts and often find moments at the very least.
I think a pretty important point in there, and something which commands a bit of indulgence for people, is that the music, and more the music than say the movies or books, that means everything to you is a soundtrack to some of the most exciting times of your life, so you stay kinda loyal to it. It's kinda hard to read a book while you're snogging that girl you're besotted with, and I took movies seriously enough to never neck in the cinema. But music...
I'm one of those REM fans who'd rather listen to the IRS records than Automatic or Out Of Time. I think they're very enjoyable records but by that point they had become part of the cultural wallpaper and simply can't mean more to me than the REM records I listened to when I took my first love to see them in a venue smaller than the stages they ended up playing on.
Same with Billy Bragg, his early records, when I saw great gigs and had the same girl in my arms, and his early stuff was largely his funny but all too real take on being young and in love. His more mature stuff simply can't compete with that, and it isn't really fair to expect it to. Even Brickbat, a lovely tune which was very much where my life went, couldn't mean as much to me.
And Costello... yes, I was young when those first 5 albums came out (and his Imperial Bedroom show was my first gig!) and while I like the Burt Bacharach stuff and think Momufuku is a great record, same with his last one, it doesn't transport me the way This Year's Model (and even Spanish Model) does.
I like Bon Iver but don't love it. But then, maybe if I was 18 and falling madly in lust/love for the first time and Skinny Love or For Emma, Forever Ago were the soundtrack to that, I can see easily that I would love that music the way I love early Costello, Springsteen (and even then it was BTR through Nebraska that mean everything to me), REM, etc.
Whcih is a long winded way of saying some people can't love some of that later stuff because of what the earlier stuff actually means to them. And sometimes that's okay. It's not them being dicks.
And John Guare might object to your refewrecne to a writer/director...
"And John Guare might object to your refewrecne to a writer/director...
And he has every right to. My error.
"some people can't love some of that later stuff because of what the earlier stuff actually means to them. And sometimes that's okay. It's not them being dicks."
How they approach the later stuff, their condescending comments on the later stuff and the criticism based on nothing makes them dicks. Listening and deciding you prefer I.R.S. R.E.M. over W.B. R.E.M. is a lot different than refusing to listen.
Shriner brings up a good point: our musical brains do seem to get stuck at some point in the past.
Sal: you bring up much for us to consider about our listening habits and outlook.
Captain Al
I get what Honest Ed is saying. I loved Springsteen in my younger years. I was 16 when Darkness hit and it blew me away. I immediately went backwards and then absorbed everything going forward. After Tunnel of Love I started to like less of his albums, although there is a lot of great music there along with some filler, I just think it didn't hit me in the same way from my 30's on. Still a fan and jump on every release but it has never hit the same.
It's not every artist though. It might ruffle some Deadheads that stopped listening to the records after American Beauty but I think In The Dark and Built to Last are really good albums. Maybe not the Dead sound but still really good. Black Muddy River is perhaps Garcia's most emotional song.
As we age some of what we loved is indeed "time stamped" and that makes it hard to have the same emotional impact with newer music by those artists. I am most definitely one of those "rock is dead" types but I still crave new music. It's usually just not rock music any more.
Great essay, Sal. All true--though, really, the Beatles were never the same after they lost Pete Best....
If only I could be so open minded about new music by older artists I've mostly written off. I try, and sometimes I find gems I had neglected. It's not newer Costello records for me, but you certainly won me over with Chaos and Creation in the Back Yard. I have been loving your Reggae record of the week, and as much as I love them, they still don't sound better than Blackheart Man or Night Food. Ramble, ramble. Another excellent piece of writing, and I certainly appreciate your conviction.
What a great essay. I'm guilty sometimes (Cold Spring Harbor and Piano Man are great albums if you ask me but nothing after he started having hits!) but I continue to enjoy Costello right up to today. Whatever the case, Thanks for an intelligent and interesting read this morning!
I worshipped Bruce through the first three albums, but I’ve been a lapsed fan since “USA.” 😎
Someday a band might put out a half dozen superb, A+ albums in a row. Inevitably at the release of album number seven there will be the complainers saying, "Yeah, I don't need to hear that. They just do the same thing over and over." You can't win.
I’m confident that a Steven Wilson Dolby Atmos remix of Black and Bluewill change their minds. Lol! :)
https://therollingstonesshop.com/products/black-and-blue-super-deluxe-5lp-and-blu-ray-color-black-and-blue-double-sided-slipmat
Let's face it, the biggest criticism in rock is not expressed. People go to record shops or now sites like Discogs, charity shops or flea markets, etc and buy whichever record they damn please and they are not accountable to anyone. I often watch VC videos on YT. Some only swear by the prog and hard rock acts they loved when they were young adults. Some others would only discuss chart music. Younger types only know of Beyoncé, Harry Styles and Taylor Swift. Others would only mention Trout Mask Replica, Ornette Coleman and the Monks.
I for one am still suspicious of the Stones after Exile ... and worship This Year's Model and not the Juliet Letters. I also appreciate Martin Guerre whatever Gérard Depardieu's behaviour may have been (and some of it isn't good at all) and don't know who the hell Bon Ivers may be.
J from Europe.
Nice read
In the end, a LOT of people just like music that reminds them of being 16. That's not me, I know it's not you, Sal. But a lot of people want that. The "I don't like anything after 'Born in The USA" crowd at Springsteen shows makes me roll my eyes. As you noted, there is a specific brand of R.E.M fandom that loves to say that they gave up on them after their first show at the 40 Watt Club or whatever. I don't get it. You're missing a lot of great music. But people need what they need. And some people need to identify themselves with the music they heard as a teenager and that's it.
PS- great piece
Thats me! Thats not me! And everything in between!
Oh, meant to say that I've REALLY tried with Bon Iver but I just can't stand him. Even the name is the kind of pretentious nonsense that drives me insane. I'd venture that even "Bridges to Babylon" is better than anything in his catalogue. Did I come back here just to shit on Bon Iver? Yes. Yes I did
I wonder if fans of other genres have similar attitudes. Does anyone say they prefer Mozart's early symphonies to his late ones? That they gave up on Louis Armstrong after the Hot 5s and 7s? That Johnny Cash never made any good records after he left Sun or that Ray Charles lost it when he left Atlantic? I suspect that's pretty rare, but I'm not sure why. Is it that you have to be more of a serious music fan to listen to Mozart or Louis Armstrong at all in the 21st century? Or that rock 'n roll more than any other genre is identified with youth (the performer's and the listener's)? Speaking for myself, I listen to a lot of music now that I either didn't get as a teenager (jazz) or actively disdained (country). But at the same time I do keep coming back to my old favorites from my high school and college days, and when it comes to rock or pop music, very little of the new stuff speaks to me and sticks with me like the soundtrack of my youth.
Marc
Man, you're good. Thanks for that.
the music world hasnt been the same since Tom Jones went commerical - there endeth the argument!
Great and thought provoking piece. Some of what you cite may also be just that people's taste change and instead of recognizing that, some people will lay the "blame" at the feet of the musician.
Dr Wu - From the Stones site: Black and Blue Super Deluxe 5LP and Blu-ray (Color) + Black and Blue Double Sided Slipmat $271.23
Really? You gotta be kidding me.
The Super Deluxe edition, like all Super Deluxe editions from The Beatles to The Who and back, are always grossly overpriced. But thankfully, you can get the Steven Wilson remix of this fantastic album as a single LP for $29.99.
Less if I wait and buy from you, I imagine. Lol!
Super Deluxe, I'm not. Apple already indicating that most of it will be available for streaming.
I do love that album. :)
Well, hopefully my business will pick up and I won't have to give away any more of my records.
Indeed, sir. All vinyl seems to travel via you… eventually. :)
The Fillmore East was my favorite rock and roll room of all time. When it comes to modern times The Turning Point in Piermont, NY is my favorite room. Tiny but with an incredible selection of live roots music and very welcoming.
I really respect those of us who continue to try to keep up with listening to new music whether by old favorites or someone new. It’s not easy to keep up as the musical spaces between our ears fill up with the background noise of modern music which I often don’t relate to nor understand. “Hey you kids, keep off my turntable!”
Captain Al
I love a good read, and that was a nice long one.
I'm admittedly one of the worst offenders.
My reason for not being a completist of any kind is that there is so much more music out there, I'm always looking for something new.
I regularly replace old records with new copies, which I play once or twice, but am happiest picking up a gem I never heard before.
I listened to "Hackney Diamonds" exactly once, and told anyone who would listen that it was their best since "Some Girls".
Back in the day Elvis "Armed Forces" was already one too many, but now I like it a lot.
For me, there is nothing on "Quadrophenia" as exciting as "Who's Next", and I hate "Squeeze Box". Last Summer I read Pete's autobiography and now I know why. He'd started taking himself too seriously.
By the time "Automatic For The People" came out, REM didn't need me anymore, besides I'd found The Pixies.
Today I emailed Sal a link to "Now You're Weird", the new album by Guerilla Toss, a band I never heard of until three days ago.
I think it's a lot of fun.
Anyway, I'm a lifer.
You get the last word, as you often do.
Love the writing as always, Sal. Sad there's so many people who think they're music lovers but don't want to do the work of thinking critically once they get past a certain age. Their loss.
Excellent piece!
There's such a sense of joy when I hear music I love that it makes me hope everyone has the same experience -- maybe not to the same song but still the wash of emotion to some piece of music. As for writing off an artist after a certain point...I just don't get it.
e
This should be a chapter in the book. I've been ridiculed for being the exact opposite. I am proudly guilty of being faithful to artists I love. I still get thrilled when artists who are considered past their sell by date release new music, I play McCartney 3 all the time, Hackney Diamonds was one of my favorite albums of that year, the last Ray Davies solo records I consider masterpieces, the last Deep Purple album is a blast. I've been buzzing over the news that Harry Vanda is about to put out a new solo album. These artists are creative people, they are more excited about what they are doing now than what they've already done. It must hurt to have everyone only caring about something they created 40-50 years ago. This doesn't happen in literature, older and wiser is embraced.
Great post! I really enjoyed it.
I also love McCartney 3 and Hackney Diamonds! I think both are great albums
Great read, Sal! I saw "Atlantic City" when it was released also. Not his best work but great nonetheless.
You touched a nerve with this one. Almost 50 comments . Niiiice!
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