I promised myself I wouldn't weigh in this year, but I can't help it.
Every year it's the same thing. "SO AND SO IS NOT ROCK AND ROLL." What that really means is, "I don't like rap music or Whitney Houston." RNRHOF is a name, nothing more. It's the name of a big place that houses memorabilia of all the great people who made music. I guarantee the same people crying about Biggie Smalls and Depeche Mode have no issue with Marvin Gaye or Smokey Robinson or The Band. THE BAND? ROCK AND ROLL? Judas Priest? One of my faves. Rock and roll? Nope. White men with guitars is just not enough to call it rock and roll.
The real argument is whether or not the artists inducted deserve it for merit and influence and of course, sales. I am not a fan of Biggie Smalls by any stretch, but he did more for hip hop in his few short years than Def Leppard did for rock and roll...except sales. It's about everything, not one thing. That said, Whitney could sing. THAT'S IT! She didn't write, her last five records were flops and her career was too short to be an influence on anyone.
A common complaint is "Would the Beatles or(insert anyone who isn't rap)" be inducted into the Hip Hop Hall Of Fame? NO of course not. With the exception of a few songs...Public Enemy, Run DMC/Aerosmith...there hasn't been a real crossover the way, say... country and rock crossover, or blues and rock, or R&B and rock, at least not to my ears.
cmealha, you may see T. Rex as two hit wonders, but no Marc Bolan, no David Bowie and countless others. Bands since, from Thin Lizzy to The Sweet to the Clash to The Replacements to Nirvana and back again, all cite T. Rex as a musical hero. Hey, even some of Roy Wood's glammier tracks came after Bolan.
All of us who love music have to get over the name of the hall.
By definition: a type of popular dance music originating in the 1950s, characterized by a heavy beat and simple melodies. Rock and roll was an amalgam of black rhythm and blues and white country music, usually based on a twelve-bar structure and an instrumentation of guitar, bass, and drums.
Rock N Roll is all encompassing, as long as its root...also an African American euphemism for fucking, dating back to 1914...can be justified. Tom Waits said his favorite "rock and roll" album was "The Abyssinian Baptist Choir." YouTube it. It sure as hell rocks and rolls. Whitney, Depeche Mode? Not so much.
That's my two cents.
25 comments:
Right. On.
Goodness gracious, this year's list could not be more painful.
Bryan
I may be para-phrasing here, but I believe that I once heard Todd state that "If elected, I will not serve."
Randy
Randy,
You are correct and that's why he'll probably not get in.
I have more Todd Rundgren albums than all of the inductees combined. I am not in the clique. joe
Can't wait until they induct Billie Eilish!!
They had to wait until all members of Trex are dead before they nominate them. Also, if it is about Rock n Roll, where's Mott The Hoople, Moby Grape, Flamin' Groovies, !3th. Fl. Elevators,Love, The Amazing Charlatans, etc. add your favorites...a sham, never credible.
This year has the most "dead" inductees in a while (percentage wise) doesn't it?
3 of the 6? The HBO telecast of this one is probably going to be fairly dull.
Maybe they'll let the Doobie Brothers do more than 2 songs to fill the gap.
….so sad that Pat Benetar didn't make it....so sad that Pat was considered...gag me please.
Other than NIN, Irving Azoff and Jon Landau, I can't abide by this class. I love T. Rex but I would never consider them RRHOF material. Since Journey got in I guess The Doobie Bros are not a stretch as they were very successful. Depeche Mode? Eh, ok I guess but not HOF worthy, Then the obvious issue of the ROCK and ROLL HOF inductee artists such as Whitney and B.I.G. You're going to have to change the name at some point. I mean, I would never expect The Beatles or Led Zeppelin to be inducted into the Rap HOF. Who's next, Bohannon?
I promised myself I wouldn't weigh in this year, but I can't help it.
Every year it's the same thing. "SO AND SO IS NOT ROCK AND ROLL." What that really means is, "I don't like rap music or Whitney Houston." RNRHOF is a name, nothing more. It's the name of a big place that houses memorabilia of all the great people who made music. I guarantee the same people crying about Biggie Smalls and Depeche Mode have no issue with Marvin Gaye or Smokey Robinson or The Band. THE BAND? ROCK AND ROLL? Judas Priest? One of my faves. Rock and roll? Nope. White men with guitars is just not enough to call it rock and roll.
The real argument is whether or not the artists inducted deserve it for merit and influence and of course, sales. I am not a fan of Biggie Smalls by any stretch, but he did more for hip hop in his few short years than Def Leppard did for rock and roll...except sales. It's about everything, not one thing. That said, Whitney could sing. THAT'S IT! She didn't write, her last five records were flops and her career was too short to be an influence on anyone.
A common complaint is "Would the Beatles or(insert anyone who isn't rap)" be inducted into the Hip Hop Hall Of Fame? NO of course not. With the exception of a few songs...Public Enemy, Run DMC/Aerosmith...there hasn't been a real crossover the way, say... country and rock crossover, or blues and rock, or R&B and rock, at least not to my ears.
cmealha, you may see T. Rex as two hit wonders, but no Marc Bolan, no David Bowie and countless others. Bands since, from Thin Lizzy to The Sweet to the Clash to The Replacements to Nirvana and back again, all cite T. Rex as a musical hero. Hey, even some of Roy Wood's glammier tracks came after Bolan.
All of us who love music have to get over the name of the hall.
By definition: a type of popular dance music originating in the 1950s, characterized by a heavy beat and simple melodies. Rock and roll was an amalgam of black rhythm and blues and white country music, usually based on a twelve-bar structure and an instrumentation of guitar, bass, and drums.
Rock N Roll is all encompassing, as long as its root...also an African American euphemism for fucking, dating back to 1914...can be justified. Tom Waits said his favorite "rock and roll" album was "The Abyssinian Baptist Choir." YouTube it. It sure as hell rocks and rolls. Whitney, Depeche Mode? Not so much.
That's my two cents.
Good observation Sal, nicely written. Let's just call it The Any Music That Sounds Like Anything Hall Of Fame.
I can’t wait to see Rolling Stone interviewing Depeche Mode and asking them if they are excited about this honour...and them trying to sound, well, honoured.
Outside of the USA, I think no band cares about this fame thing. And Def Leppard rocks.
Roy
Whitney Houston's career was too short to influence anyone? Have you been near a radio in the past thirty years? Her influence is everywhere. Without her there would be no Mariah Carey, no Celine Dion, no American Idol. You might say that that would be good--I would be very happy to live in a world with no Celine Dion songs--but she certainly had influence. She didn't write many songs, that's true, but neither did Elvis or the Temptations, and you can't tell me they don't belong in the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame.
I'm not sure I get how you're defining rock and roll, but after all the people who assume that no black people make rock and roll (other than Jimi and maybe Living Colour) and that nothing mellow can be rock and roll, it's refreshing to see that someone thinks Judas Priest isn't rock and roll. I'm more in line with what you say at the end--it's all rock and roll, the way I see it.
I wish I could bring myself to care!
Bret Alan,
I thought by showing the standard definition of rock and roll, and by saying rock and roll is all encompassing, and by telling people to get over the name of the hall, and by defending the inclusion of Motown artists and The Band and Judas Priest and to some extent Biggie Smalls, that I WAS saying it's ALL rock and roll.
On the other hand, I don't believe standing and singing well is. Mario Lanza sang well and influenced many. I saw Whitney Houston perform in person twice, and both times was floored. But spawning more divas is not the same type of influence as one man literally rocking and rolling on national TV and causing just about every kid in the world to start a band or play guitar. I stand by my feelings regarding Whitney's short career, and those who came after. Technically, Celine predates Whitney by 5 years.
I go back and forth on this. On the one hand, it is only a name that should not preclude outstanding musicians from being honored for their work. It is also meant to be a prestigious honor to be bestowed upon musicians who stand out in their field. ‘Their field’ depending on your view here, may not be all music as a whole, rather a particular genre. This should not be a popularity contest across all musicians. Though, if it restricted to a narrow definition of a particular genre, then wouldn’t we need like 16 more Halls of Fame? Kind of ridiculous. Sal’s argument about the origins of today’s music is valid. Everyone has built upon the past, whether within their preferred genre or not. (Like I said, I go back and forth).
But, what’s in a name?
Michael Jordan, one of the greatest athletes ever. He inspired a nation of children to ‘Be Like Mike’. They got out to play, they learned from his work ethic, his personality and joy in playing sports. He was active in the inner-city communities to uplift hard work children. He was a cross-over athlete who can play almost any sport he applied himself to. Many of today’s best athletes owe their start and dedication to Michael Jordan. Even people who did not become athletes used his inspiration to better themselves.
That still does not mean he belongs in the Baseball Hall of Fame.
Ask me again tomorrow, and I’m sure I’ll have a counterpoint. Like think what would happen if the Academy Awards blended all types of movies (comedy, drama, musical, foreign, etc.) and ignored all boundaries in handing out awards. Just sayin’.
Sal,
Point taken, but the name has always irked me as it excludes so much good music that we grew up with that can't be labelled as R&R.
I can't agree with your statement "No T. Rex, No Bowie" but I can see your point about influence. However when you start comparing Bowie and T. Rex there's no comparison and that's the issue. I put T.Rex in the same category as Joan Jett. Great fun but RRHOF? I know that not every member is going to rise to the level of the Beatles just like every player in the Baseball HOF doesn't;t rise to the level of Ruth or Mays but that's why we keep discussing it, It's fun.
@cmealha
If we take the statement "no Bolan, no Bowie" literally, then I would agree with you. But if we are talking music, it's a fact that Bowie and Bolan were friends in the late 60's London underground while both were making music that was stylistically a far cry from the music that made them stars. The original version of "The Prettiest Star," a song thought to be about Bolan, was written three or four years before the glammier version found on "Aladdin Sane." Bowie might have gone on to be a different kind of star without Bolan's influence, sure. But Bolan sure helped mold Bowie's most famous persona, Ziggy Stardust. Plus remember, T.Rex in the USA is a lot different than T. Rex in the U.K. and Japan.
I also found this:
"Bowie’s first album speaks of a love of the studiedly English singer Anthony Newley, while Hunky Dory featured ‘Song for Bob Dylan’, in which he lamented Dylan’s current loss of form. Although most would claim that Marc Bolan was a musical pygmy compared to Bowie’s goliath, it cannot be denied that the T. Rex man was more than just a mate. The glam rock movement that Bolan kicked off with his glittered cheeks and feather boas made possible the more sophisticated ventures by Bowie into that foppish territory. It’s rumoured that Bowie’s ‘Lady Stardust’ is at least partly about Bolan."
If there is any truth to that at all, T.Rex absolutely belongs in the HOF for just being pioneers of the glam rock movement.
It's hard to avoid commenting on the RnR Hall cause they're so obviously about self what appears to be personal agendas as opposed to real merit. It's not just what is rock, that could be debated ad infinitum, as much as who is overlooked and who is put in. I think why a lot of criticism is directed at a style of music say pop in the case of Whitney is that people who have made a much greater contribution are overlooked. A great voice or being a great instrumentalist should not gain admittance into the Hall of Fame. It needs to be coupled or tripled or whatever with additional contributions such as songwriting or influence and impact on the nature of the music. Expanding the art (Oy Vey how pretentious)
Look I'm not a huge Tull fan but their significance is obvious. Whitney great voice but beyond that what is her contribution. Not songwriting or arranging or producing of creating a new off shot of the music just a spectacular voice.
Any way thought I'd add my fifty cents. Now I'm gonna go back to netflix and watch the excellent documentary series on the history of rap.
But hey what about Fairport Convention. I mean ya get Richard Thompson, Sandy Denny and a gazillion great players and singers all in with one band. Oh yeah and of course Todd
enough already
P
Actually Sal you should be nominated for your writing and your playlists..Do they have write ins on the ballot?
There's an NRBQ song that refers to Rolling Stone as a 'big dumb fashion magazine.'
Big and dumb. That's the RRHOF and its principals.
By the way, if there was a better rock and roll band - using Sal's definition above - in the latter part of the 20th century than NRBQ, I have yet to hear them. Also, there wasn't. So is it about rock and roll, or is it about popularity and critical approval?
Well said. Very well said. I can't get worked up too much about what is and what isn't rock and roll every year. Think of it as the Popular Music hall of fame. I dunno.
I have a hard time with Whitney too. She was a gigantic star, but not a cultural force in any real way. We differed on Janet last year, but at the least I could point to the 90's artists like Britney and Christina trying to be like Janet. Whitney was a fantastic singer, but she didn't bring anything to the conversation that wasn't already there. I know Mariah was signed in the wake of Whitney's success, but Mariah should have been inducted before Whitney. Mariah at least wrote her stuff, including a couple of classics. She also grew as an artist and incorporated different elements of hip hop and updated R&B into her work in ways that was very influential. Whitney, not as much.
That said, watching Thin Lizzy, The Replacements, Motorhead and a bunch of other bands get passed over again is pretty dispiriting. A Whitney tribute gets ratings. Todd doesn't. That's about what it comes down to.
Always enjoying your writing and music curation, Sal.
My dominant thought when seeing the nominees was: where on earth are The Go-Go's? Rock's first really popular all-women group (with all due respect to Fanny), a number of hits, huge MTV video presence, catchy as hell, lead singer went on to more glory, relatively successful (and excellent) Broadway show. What does it take? Same question as before Linda Ronstadt was finally recognized.
And don't get me started on Procol Harum.
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