...the nominees for the Rock & Roll Hall Of Fame are announced and the same tired discussions pick up exactly where they left off.
Why call it the "rock and roll" hall of fame if it "allows" hip hop, among other genres many do not care for?
Well, what would you like to call it? I think The Rock & Roll Hall Of Fame is a fine name.
I also think Public Enemy's "Shut 'Em Down" and "Can't Do Nuttin' For Ya Man" rock pretty hard, as does Ray Charles' "I Don't Need No Doctor," and Kool & The Gang's "Jungle Boogie," Beastie Boys' "So Whatcha Want," and Eric B. & Rakim's "Microphone Fiend." Ever hear Bill Monroe's "Scotland?" It's badass. So is "Melting Pot" by Booker T. & The MGs.
The name, The Rock & Roll Hall Of Fame, is all purpose. Let's move on, or if I may, let's rock and roll.
Next up? How could they let (insert the artist you hate) in and not (insert the artist you love)?
Well, I'll say this. Rather than discuss why you are completely flummoxed by this year's nominees, how about offering up your 14 nominees with your reasons. And don't forget to base your choices on the original criteria, which is this:
Leaders in the music industry joined together in 1983 to establish the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame Foundation. One of the Foundation’s many functions is to recognize the contributions of those who have had a significant impact on the evolution, development and perpetuation of rock and roll by inducting them into the Hall of Fame.
Artists become eligible for induction 25 years after the release of their first record. Criteria include the influence and significance of the artists’ contributions to the development and perpetuation of rock and roll.
Nomination and induction into the Hall of Fame is not about popularity, records sales, which label the group is on, or anything other than the process below. The love for, the evaluation of, and the impact of any artist are subjective questions to be answered by the nominators and the voters. Unlike baseball, football, basketball or hockey, statistics are not relevant. Please read below:
The entire nomination and induction process is coordinated by the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame Foundation in New York City. Individuals can be inducted in four categories: Performer, Early Influence, Non-Performer and Side-Men. The only formal criteria for the performance category is that an artist has to have had their first record 25 years ago. That said, candidates are reviewed and discussed relative to their impact on this music that we broadly call rock and roll. The innovation and influence of these artists is also critical. Gold records, number one hits, and million sellers are really not appropriate standards for evaluation.
Based on all of that, it's becoming increasingly more difficult to find worthy nominees, at least that's how I feel.
I recorded my annual guest spot on the Showbiz Sandbox podcast where I talk about discuss lose complete control and deliver an unhinged rant like some feral lunatic on this year's nominees, so there will be no spoilers here. You'll just have to listen to it once it is released and you must promise to still be my friend when it's over.
42 comments:
King Crimson and Jethro Tull need to be in. They check all the boxes. And yet they have never been nominated
The rocknroll hall of fame is a sick, completely irrelevant joke
First of all there is no way anyone could ever justify (to me anyway) Mariah Carey. So I'll give you half of the 14, so that you can pick apart my taste.
1.MC5
2.Mick Rock
3.The Smiths
4.Mott The Hoople
5.Iggy Pop (he's in with The Stooges)
6.The Jam
7.Devo
Wasn’t this thing co-founded by Jann Simon Wenner?
Hell this is easy. Here's 7 more
1.War
2.Warren Zevon
3.Badfinger
4.The Guess Who
5.Grand Funk Railroad
6.Steve Earle
7.Paul Westerberg (solo)
My list:
Warren Zevon: Come on!
Chic: Very influential cross over from disco to rock, Nile Rodgers has had a big influence on hip hop and an influence on rock.
Devo: Undeniably unique.
Thin Lizzy: I know Sal will agree with me on this one.
Bad Company: When you think of the 70's, these guys are top 10 in my book of rock bands in that decade.
Soundgarden: Following Nirvana and Pearl Jam, the third of the Seattle bands that defined grunge for the mainstream.
New York Dolls: Of course their output is minimal, but very influential, for good or bad, and the epitome of the glam rock and roll.
Iron Maiden: To ignore the heavy metal genre is like the baseball hall of fame excluding closers until recently. This has been a big part of the game for 50 years, it's time to acknowledge it.
Jethro Tull: Completely unique, deserving.
The Replacements: Scuzzy, unpredictable, brilliant or missing in action depending on the night. Carried on the rock traditions through the 80s.
The Smiths: Huge influence on the 80's, and their music is timeless.
MC5: If these guys weren't influential I don't know who was.
Boston and Styx: I get it, these were among the bands who didn't put their faces on their album covers and sold a bunch of records. But man, there is a lot of great music here, and for a generation, these are really influential bands. Boston should be a no-brainer, their first album is straight through a greatest hits record for most bands.
Foreigner, Kool & the Gang, Ozzy and Peter Frampton are worthy this year. I mean, Sade? Mariah Carey? Is Debbie Boone up next year? Ludicrous.
Bryan
Fourteen is hard, there are so many. This year's list, as usual sucks swamp water. The first two are top priority for me, the rest of the list is not in any order.
Here's my quick take:
Ten Years After
Mott The Hoople
Bad Company
The Jam
Warren Zevon
Jethro Tull
King Crimson
Peter Tosh
Judas Priest
Grand Funk Railroad
The Monkees
Procol Harum
The Raspberries
Three Dog Night
Sade?
Really? And I like her records.
But really -- Sade?
And I should add that I'm a huge fan of the actual RRHOF Museum. If you haven't been, your life is the poorer for it.
But this shit they're pulling nominee-wise is getting pretty damned embarrassing.
Sade! I say yes to Sade. A distinctive and influential body of work. (Along with Anita Baker, she helped launch the Quiet Storm radio format). Sade knows her voice and how to use it well. Her first four albums in particular are stellar.
But I'm also down for a lot of the suggestions here. The Monkees typify a whole world of pre-fab acts from New Kids on the Block to One Direction and a gazillion others before and after. Their rebelliousness against their label, the great songwriters on their hits, the way their albums got better and better as they wrote and played on them, the music videos, the tv show, the weird movie -- they are indeed an enduring act.
And yes to many of the others. Hey, if you can't argue about who should get in, you probably wouldn't visit a music blog every day. And it's more fun to champion those you think should be in, at least to my lights.
The Pixies.
I doubt I could come up with 14 at this point, tbh.
But these three I'll die on that hill:
The Monkees should be in -- if not as Performers directly, then "Non-Performers" perhaps. It's crazy when you think of how many people picked up an instrument because of the show (and the records.)
Devo -- without question unique and influential (I expect them to eventually get in.)
The Replacements -- for the same reason.
The rest of the usual suspects that get named often in terms of influence? Maybe Zevon, Priest, The Smiths, sure.
First of all, Mariah Carey is as worthy as anyone to be in any hall of fame. Any one. Mariah Carey should be in the baseball hall of fame just for dating Jeter for a while.
But my list (some good ideas here!)
1. Sinead O'Connor
2. New York Dolls
3. Replacements
4. Thin Lizzy
5. MC5
6. Kool and the Gang
7. Sade
8. Mariah Carey
9. Warren Zevon
10. The Monkeys
11. Phil Collins (yes, I said it!)
12. Cher
13. Judas Priest
14. The Smiths
I still say nobody gets in till Nicky Hopkins gets in. But nobody listens to me.
Until they allow Pete Rose in, oops sorry, wrong Hall of Fame.
What about the 1910 Fruitgum Company?
Ok, for people like me who were raised on AM radio in the '60s, some of those consistent hitmakers put out music that still defines so much of our lives back then. As was already mentioned, The Guess Who and Three Dog Night are excellent examples. And why is Dion in but not the Belmonts?
1. Joy Division/New Order
2. Mott the Hoople
3. The Replacements
4. The Black Crowes
5. Squeeze
6. Oasis
7. Kool & The Gang
8. The Smiths
9. INXS - have always liked them
10. Television
11. The B-52s
12. Wilco
13. Lucinda Williams
14. J Geils Band
My "why or why not" reasoning comes from -- somewhat -- looking at who is already in for comparison -- as well as who is *not* in that is obviously unique and influentai.
If Sabbath and Deep Purple are in -- why not Priest (or Iron Maiden for that matter?) as far as Heavy Metal influencers go? They all formed right around the same time.
If Kraftwerk is in -- Devo belongs in.
If (random singer/songwriter) is in -- why not Zevon?
If KISS and Alice Cooper are in -- why not the Dolls? (See the metal groups above...)
If Yes is in -- why not King Crimson?
I'm usually stuck on "influential" here -- nobody should be denying that Mariah Carey has not been an influential vocalist (even if you don't care for her music.) (Lots of double/triple negatives in that sentence, aren't there...) Which is what I feel I can say about The Smiths and/or The Replacements.
But I've never seen the influence of some of the bands named above -- and I like many of them. I can -- sort of -- see a couple of these mentioned above as having *some* influence on what came after (the MC5 maybe -- though they are regional tbh and should just have "Kick Out The Jams" in as an influential *song* for sure -- and I'm from the greater Detroit area! The Jam/Paul Weller, sure.) Procol Harum? Mott? Tull? Bad Co? J Geils? The Black Crowes? Not really. All good bands, but the criteria needs to be firmer and obviously point to lineage downward.
"If Kraftwerk is in -- Devo belongs in."
I don't see these two bands as the same thing at all.
"If Sabbath and Deep Purple are in -- why not Priest (or Iron Maiden for that matter?) as far as Heavy Metal influencers go? They all formed right around the same time."
I do agree with you here, though Sabbath, Deep Purple and Priest all came out of the late 60's, while Maiden was mid-70's. But you're right. Maiden is just as influential as Priest.
As for The MC5, I can't think of another band, except maybe The Dolls, that gets cited by more rock stars as influential.
I'd like to hear from others re: Mariah, one way or the another.
FINALLY, a fellow Styx appreciator!
I promise to be your friend after, so be sure to let us know when your rant is released. xo
I'll keep way out of the fan vs. objective thing here, but...
until they put in MC5 & the Dolls, I don't take any of this seriously. Besides Kraftwerk, who else on any of these lists are as influential? I'll add Iron Maiden to that.
If you can concede that a lot of what would make something "rock n roll" (and thus eligible for the RnRHoF) is ATTITUDE, then plenty of these inductees make more sense, but not Mariah. I'm sorry, she just doesn't have it. The Attitude.
And again, no Dolls, no MC5, then you CANNOT even contemplate Mariah Carey.
This is what ChatGPT the AI app gave:
Iron Maiden, Judas Priest, The Smiths, Soundgarden, Motörhead, Pixies, Joy Division
rationale for each here:
https://chat.openai.com/share/f5a45f89-973e-4325-aa61-af563096b2a2
Rationale:
Ten Years After- as good as any blues rockers
Mott The Hoople- Bowie's in, and they really rocked the glam
Bad Company- I don't know, but great singles. They influenced a lot of bands that I don't really like. I'd rather have them than Foreigner
The Jam- everybody tells me so, even though I never got them
Warren Zevon- singer songwriter with a whip smart sense of sardonic humour
Jethro Tull- never liked them much after the first three, but they are sure beloved, and there's the flute thing
King Crimson- Really birthed heavy metal as much as anyone, and did it with crazy good chops
Peter Tosh- Bob Marley's in, and Tosh is his equal
Judas Priest- Sabbath is in
Grand Funk Railroad- Almost invented the band without a lead guitar category
The Monkees- would we have ever had MTV without them? Maybe that's a reason
Procol Harum- nobody ever did what they did any better than they did. OK, maybe I'd swap this one out
The Raspberries- OK, this is because I'm from Cleveland, but they were as good as Big Star in the power pop category
Three Dog Night- Just great pop-rockers with exceptional taste in songwriters. I know it's not supposed to be about hits, but why not, and there's definitely bands that were plenty commercial that are in
Feel free to flame away, but be gentle, I'm old
Cleveland Jeff,
There will be no flaming here. But this will probably annoy a few:
As much as I love Big Star, I love the Raspberries more. Big Star seems to be on the lips of every power pop band that picked up a guitar, and I think part of that is the mystique over the output. Influential? Hell yeah. But there are a lot of speed bumps on those Big Star albums, and I think Big Star's "Third" is one of the most overrrated records in music history.
The Jam are one of my favorite bands of all time. I still play their records consistently. They are The Who meets punk meets Motown. Maybe that's the problem. They took more than they gave. I want them in but I understand why they might not get in.
Procol Harum, MC5, Dolls, Kraftwerk and the motherflipping METERS need to be in.
I echo G's comments:
"And again, no Dolls, no MC5, then you CANNOT even contemplate Mariah Carey."
"As for The MC5, I can't think of another band, except maybe The Dolls, that gets cited by more rock stars as influential."
Good criteria!
How about Nirvana, Radiohead, U2, David Bowie, Weezer, Beck, They Might Be Giants, and even Miley Cyrus - just to name a few? That's a short list of Pixies devotees. I was surprised not to get more uptake in the comments, but if "influential" is the determining factor there is scarcely a more prominent contender! Perhaps given all the suggestions that seem heavily weighted towards the 70s and 80s, they are a bit too contemporary for the room.
I won't go the distance, but reading the above led me to suggest:
Nominate both Westerberg AND The Mats
Nominate Verlaine AND TV
Nominate Hunter AND Mott
I see that Todd "won" in '21, so I won't go there. the Butterfield band won moons ago, but if "inluential" is a major criterion why hasn't Mike Bloomfield made the grade?
But when you look at some of the people who are in, what justification would you need if it is a fan's POV. What did these people do that puts them ahead of those mentioned that are not in?
1.Bon Jovi (cause they sold a bizillion records?)
2.Joan Baez (a voice that could peel paint)
3.Def Leppard (c'mon Iron Maiden is far more worthy)
4.The Doobie Brothers (a poor man's Allman Brothers)
5.Duran Duran (and they won't put Mott in?)
6.Eurythmics (name six tunes of theirs)
7.Peter Gabriel (and not Phil Collins?)
8.George Michael (c'mon, really what was his biggest contribution?)
9.The Go-Go's (Girlschool does it better)
10.Green Day (after gettting massivie radio airplay,singlehandily made R&R irrelevant by making every record label sign anything that sounded like them)
11.Heart (proving bland r&r will always have a place)
12.Whitney Houston (I'm sure the R&RHOF has to have a quota on the number of black artists that must be nominated but why not War?)
13.Journey (see 11)
14.Sheryl Crow (and no Monkees)
Ok you can now unleash the hounds on me,and tell me how far my head is up my ass. I look forward to it
Gordon lightfoot. I don’t believe he is in.
First intermission of Rangers game, so I have a few to do this:
@Jobe:
I've enjoyed music by every one of those 14 artists you mentioned.
But...
Bon Jovi? Nope. I mean, really nope.
Joan Baez? Yeah, no brainer for a lot of reasons.
Def Leppard? Good singles. Mostly second rate everybody. No.
Doobie Brothers? I think they are better than their reputation. Many hits. Reinvention. Still plugging away. Influence? Not sure. Yes, sure.
Duran Duran? I don't hate them, but no.
Eurythmics? I can name 12 songs and they are all on "Savage," a grossly overlooked masterpiece. Many hits. Annie Lennox, beloved. I'm happy either way, in or out.
Phil Collins? Yes! Yes! Yes! A stellar solo career. EGOT? Have to look it up. Influence? People still talk about his drumming. Yes.
George Michael? No. Good music hasn't been enough for hundreds of artists, and that seems to be his only check mark. No.
The Go-Gos? Overrated. Yeah, I know. I expect the hate mail. But overrated.
Green Day? I am not a fan and so I will say nothing. Though punks to Broadway is a pretty impressive achievement. But then again, people like a lot of crap.
Heart? Absolutely. With only Suzi Quatro and Fanny before them, they set a pretty monstrous table for rock and roll. And they have the hits. And they kill live.
Whitney Houston? Great singer. That's it. No.
Journey? Why? The Sopranos? Nope.
Sheryl Crow? Jack of all trades. Master of none. No.
Why allow rap in a rock and roll hall of fame? Because rap is rock and roll. It's the most vibrant form of rock and roll today.
It's not "album rock", but that's only part of rock and roll. And not understanding that is not understanding rock and roll at all. Rock and roll wasn't invented by The Beatles. It was invented by Wynonie Harris, Roy Brown, and the Clovers, among others. Rap is a lot closer to that than, say, Pink Floyd is. They're both part of rock and roll.
Now, you want to say country artists like Dolly Parton and Willie Nelson don't belong? I agree. And plenty of the specific choices are bad. But rap and other forms of Black music NEED to be in there.
https://digitaldreamdoor.com/pages/why-rap-is-rock.html
Warren Zevon
Little Feat
NRBQ
The Blasters
Dave Alvin (Solo)
A more appropriate name would be the Jann Wenner Critical Approval Hall of Fame. Or a game show: Impress the Douchebag. Having said that, let's rock and / or roll:
NRBQ. This is a total pipedream. No one knows, no one cares. Al Anderson: "Between 1974 and whenever I left that band, I can tell you that that was the baddest-ass rhythm section that ever lived.” Preach. This is indisputable. If we’re going by the classic definition of “Rock and Roll,” which has shit to do with popularity, a no-brainer. Never happen.
Captain Beefheart. More influential than one might realize. The word genius gets used a lot amid discussions of rock music; he was. ”Oh Blobby Aren’t you great” exclaims two lips in some jumbled rock and roll tune, and wears a spot I cannot scratch…” Describes the whole damn enterprise.
Blue Oyster Cult. To me, exactly what I want from rock and roll band: Great tunes, real smarts, terrific guitar solos, and “lasers ." But underline smarts.
Steppenwolf. Yeah, some great early singles, including that song. Then a string of so-so albums on which they stranded some terrific cuts. Then, a live double for the ages, followed by Steppenwolf 7, which just kills front-to-back. And yeah, that was it. But really they deserve it just for that song.
Grand Funk. They brought it. Not the funk, the...well, you know where I'm going with this. Big, noisy, dumb, joyful rock and roll band. underline dumb. Deserve our love.
Marshall Tucker Band. Huge live act in their day. Solid song writing, solid playing, great band. Sold a ton of records, and forgotten now, unfairly. Not as powerful or transcendental as the Allmans, but a lot less faux-jazz noodling too.
King Crimson. Should have been in yesterday. one of the giants of the genre. I call prog bias.
Devo. This hasn’t happened yet? Travesty. Eliminate the ninnies and the twits.
Frampton. Totally onboard with this one. A musician’s musician who hit the jackpot, deservedly so in my opinion.
Roger Water (solo). The records are spotty, each has its moments. I would induct on the basis of his Wall tour, a spectacle unmatched, and will likely never be equalled. The film that followed is remmarkable.
That’s all I have right now, the dread Covid has caught up to me at last.
jmills and Noam Sane,
NRBQ. Of course. How could I have forgotten? I feel downright guilty.
The only thing wrong with putting NRBQ in the rock hall is that it would ruin their totally neglected reputation. The great overlooked band of all time. And they should have had a whole bunch of huge singles. The songs are there. Plus the live show was always the bomb.
Looking at everyone's suggestions, and doing my best to keep with the criteria, as opposed to letting my personal taste get in the way, here are the artists I feel deserve to be in:
NRBQ
First and foremost is that everyone from Led Zeppelin and The Replacements, David Johansen and Elton John, Lucinda Williams and Johnny Cash, and countless others have cited this band as either their fave or in Paul Westerberg's case "the band we wanted to be." That's infuence, baby! Toss in mindboggling musicianship, the ability to play stunning versions of the Beach Boys "Don't Worry Baby" and Monk's "Little Rootie Tootie" convincingly in the same set, to rock hard and jam, to play a slow doo wop dance or a Sun Ra medley all without ever breaking a sweat, make this band the very reason a hall of fame should exist.
The MC5
Because every rock band since has either mentioned them or the NY Dolls as an influence, and their three records are pure, unadulterated rock and roll.
XTC
Because they've managed to corral fans of punk, new wave, pop, orchestral, baroque and rock and roll with their genius. They have hits. Their records are diverse and adult, as well as balls out silly and fun. Andy, Colin and Dave are virtuosos.
Bertie Higgins
(ok just kidding)
Jumping in to defend Mariah Carey- If Madonna is in, the Supremes are in, the Ronnettes are in, etc, then Mariah deserves to be in. 19 number 1 hits (short of the Beatles record by 1), sold a gazillion records, etc. I also think she was genuinely great. "Always Be My Baby", "Heartbreaker" and "We Belong Together" are as good a pop hit as anyone has had. I think she deserves it on any level
That said, I would PREFER that the Hall was mostly reserved for the best of the best. I wish it was just the best artists of all time in there. But it's not. it's a business. And Journey is in there. So is Def Leppard. So here we are. So if Whitney (who didn't write her songs) is in there, then Mariah, who had MORE hits and did write her songs, should be in there.
XTC - very good suggestion
Excellent dialogue. Would like to submit Wire as an alternative inductee (arguably more deserving than some of the official nominees). Their first three albums are generally recognized stone cold classics. And their continuing career remains stellar. Highly influential.
Also, why not Iggy Pop? Realize that he’s in with the Stooges but, if solo Ozzy is being considered… I’ve always heard that Ozzy had near zero involvement in his classic first solo album. I share this in case the counter argument to Iggy is Bowie’s involvement (he produced the Stooges also).
Finally, De La Soul’s first album was released in 1989. Where’s their flowers? :)
Thanks for all you do, Sal.
RE: Wire
I recently listened to "Pink Flag," as I do a few times a year. I wholeheartedly agree their first three are classics, as well as influential and yes, they have put out solid music recently. But my feeling is that, even those who have a deep knowledge of a lot of music and genres, still have no idea who Wire is or what those three classics sound like. I do think that's at least a part of the problem with their consideration. But what do I know?
As for Iggy, of course! I have no issue with his solo induction.
Sal, I appreciate your good-humored take on the annual rock n roll hall of fame crapathon. I know it's a fool's errand to take the Hall seriously because it's been a joke for a looooong time now. I hadn't paid it much attention in recent years, but thought I'd share a weigh-in. This is how the list would go for this year's entries IMHO. Pardon my rant.
1. Phish - incredibly glaring omission. Never even nominated. Exceptionally diverse body of work. They do the best covers of any band ever. Epic tours, dozens of MSG sold out shows. They definitely rock harder than 99 percent of those already in the Hall as well as all of the nominees.
2. Oasis - One of the few worthy nominees on the list. Fantastic peak then faded, but their songwriting chops during those first few albums are tops.
3. Ozzy Osbourne - Duh. Of course Ozzy belongs in the hall. Ridiculous he hasn't been in there for years.
4. Sloan - It will likely never happen. But it should. Longevity plus sustained excellence in craft. They're too good for the Hall.
5. Kool and the Gang - Legendary badasses. Well-earned.
6. War - See Kool and the Gang. With more musical virtuosity and variety. Glaring omission as well.
7. The Smiths - Ridiculous they haven't been in for years.
8. The White Stripes - Jack White gets on my nerves. But c'mon. Ridiculous that they weren't inducted last year.
9. Smashing Pumpkins - Duh. Should've been in long ago.
10. The Flaming Lips - Have done more to expand the scope of music and rock n roll than anyone in the past 30 years. Too good for the public.
11. Iron Maiden - Probably the biggest snub of them all. Beyond words that they're not in. The Hall is just scared that they'll rock all the weak entries out.
12. Wilco - Deserve it a ton. Will eventually get in.
13. Sonic Youth - I'm not a big fan. But they still belong in the damn thing.
14. Ween - Paint the Hall Brown then turn out the lights because the Rock n Roll Hall of Fame is lame.
So many excellent candidates shared.
A couple more:
Los Lobos - apparently nominated once nearly 10 years ago.
Dwight Yoakam - played the same clubs/bills as Los Lobos, The Blasters, and X. Opening for Hüsker Dü has to count towards his rock bona fides.
Merle Haggard - Workin’ Man Blues! Is it right to include Pancho but not Lefty? :)
Late to the party....
Just heard Grand Funk Railroad's "Footstompin' Music" and they should be in the Hall for that song alone. I was sitting in a chair when I heard it and was "air instrumenting" every instrument, my sign of a great record. Had I been driving my speed would have gone up at least 10 mph.
Earlier poster said the band "almost invented the band without a lead guitar category," a puzzling statement. They were definitely guitar-led by a strutting Mark Farner and it's my contention that he and Ace Frehley's basic licks allowed millions of teen guitarists to "crack the code," myself included.
Bob in IL
I think the musical acts mentioned here answer your inquiry very well.
The artists mentioned in these comments, such as King Crimson, Devo, Warren Zevon, etc., have a lot more to do with "Rock 'n Roll" than most of the official 2024 nominees.
And, looking at the 2024 nominee list suggests that the Hall of Fame voters ignore the "Nomination and induction into the Hall of Fame is not about popularity, records sales" mandate, and instead are guided by the popularity numbers.
Another name long overdue for the Hall of Fame: Brian Eno.
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