Thursday, August 29, 2024

This Post Has No Title, Just Words And No Tune

 


 

After yesterday's brief mention of Dua Lipa and Sabrina Carpenter, the wheels started spinning. I had an idea, but I wasn't sure if I believed the premise myself. I am still not sure. But right now as I type this, I do feel strongly about it. Also, pieces like this tend to roil some people. I am fine with that as long as no one insults me with phrases like "Calm down" or "There are better things to do." As Malone said to Ness in "The Untouchables," "Yeah, there are better things to do. But I am not doing them right now." This is the place for this. If you're here, you should know that by now.


As an art form, do we make more excuses for music than any other?

 

First thought:
All it takes are three New York theater critics to trash a play and that play is toast weeks later.

I mentioned this to a friend who knows this scene more than I do. He said, "Long ago, a bad review from the NYT would kill a show. But those days are long gone. Theater critics just don’t have that power anymore." 

So I guess that is the first hole in my premise. I admit, I am not regularly discussing theater.

Next:
As for film, do we ever hear anyone defend the umpteenth Marvel film or action picture sequel, or say, something closer to home for me, any Woody Allen film of the last 25 years, with the same excuses we frequently hear for pop music?
 
How many times have some of you, myself too, made a disparaging remark about your Pop Star du Jour, to only have it met with the pat, "People hated Elvis & The Beatles back in the day. Let the kids enjoy their music." Or, "You don't have to listen to it." Rarely, if ever, do we hear a defense of the 15th film in the "Halloween" franchise, or "Fast & Furious 20" with "People hated 'Casablanca' and 'Vertigo' back in the day." 

I know I have never heard that.

Question before we go on:
All of that clamoring and fanaticism over Elvis and The Beatles and the Rolling Stones back in the day, that was only kids? Millions of fans, and yet no one in their mid to late 30s or 40s showed up at the airports or clubs? Just innocent children calling the pop music shots? 

My friend says, "Older people aren’t SUPPOSED to like what’s new. Raucous big band was sexy and dangerous. Your parents hated it."
Again I ask, was there not one adult stompin' at the savoy in 1944?
I understand the theory, but I don't buy it completely. For every 10,000 people shouting "Disco Sucks" in 1977, another 10,000 were buying the "I Love The Nightlife" 45. Were those only kids, too?

If older people aren't supposed to like what's new, what's with all the tolerance now?

Same friend offered this, "I put a pin in your comment about people NOT taking the 8th Alien movie to task? Sure they do. The last one was eviscerated. But do FANS take apart the 8th film in a franchise? Oh, gosh, if you’re a hardcore fan, absolutely. Filmmakers will tell you they receive intense feedback on every frame of their movies."

I believe at one time I could have gone up against most regarding film. Not so much now. When I was screenwriting from 1982-1988, I used to go to the movies two to three times a week, while also watching one or two at home almost every night. Me and my roommate at the time, also a screenwriter, often saw two films a day. One day in 1987, I saw four films in one day. I saw one film in the theater this year, a 70th anniversary screening of Hitchcock's "Rear Window." A home run. I don't care about blockbusters, and Marvel Universe and goofy romcoms. And all of those brilliant indie films and documentaries look just as good on my television, where the seats are more comfortable, the refreshments are cheaper and no one is looking at their phones or talking to the protagonist. 

Okay then. Maybe I know a lot less than I think I do. I told you the premise might have holes, but I am going to continue anyway.

Here is where I think I can hold court.  Or at least try to.

Music, no matter how awful or derivative, or unlistenable and cheap sounding, gets more free passes these days.

Do it yourself home recordings today are common place. There is no longer a need for a producer, or at least one person with a keen ear. Just scroll through a few pages of Brooklyn Vegan. The lower the fi, the cultier the following. 95% of that output would have been laughed out of EMI and Sun Studios 60 years ago, or sent back with a proper lashing by the Bob Ludwigs and Glyn Johnses of the 60s and 70s. Now, push a few buttons on your Apple Watch and you found your new drummer. Find a gimmick, or some Kabuki makeup, an enormous wig, and you're headlining a new raccoon friendly pop-up venue in Bushwick. Musicianship and a solid musical repertoire seems more of a turn off these days than an asset. "Yuck, a guitar solo." Music is an afterthought.

In 1988, some friends and I went to a Broadway preview of "Carrie: The Musical." We laughed at it for two hours. It closed after 16 performances, deservedly so. But I bet some people enjoyed it. Should that matter? It was crap and people said so. Cast and crew, out of a job they thought they might have for a few years. Sad, but the musical was still crap.

That won't happen with music.

Not everyone listens to as much music as we do. For some, music is the soundtrack of their workout routine, or a Motown mixed tape they can throw on at a birthday party. Their record collections consist of whatever their older brother left them before moving away, or worse, a few Christmas records and the "Funny Girl" soundtrack sitting among books and magazines in their living room. I don't believe that's who we are. I know it's not me. And after 16 years of Burning Wood, I am fairly certain it's not you. We care more. It's part of our DNA. Music means something.

I don't think it's a terrible thing to call out crap, just because it might not be crap to someone else. If you love something, who cares what anyone says? I find it hard to believe that anyone who grew up on the great music of the 20th century, is completely satisfied with a lot of the music of the 21st century. Of course, it's not all bad. That is not what I am saying. I am just feeling that people who love theater, television and film seem to tolerate the crap less, or at least they speak more freely about what they think stinks. At least that's how it is in my circles. There are always excuses when discussing music. And there is certainly more indifference when discussing music over film or television

Music, in all forms, seems to have more apologists than realists. 

Even the last remaining print mags have stopped trashing albums the way Creem, Circus, & Trouser Press used to. Mojo and Uncut will rarely give a record less than 3 1/2 stars. God knows just how much crap they get sent to listen to, so I imagine they may be thinking, why waste time. But that isn't very helpful to those who want to know what and what not to listen to? We don't want to waste time either.

And while I can never prove that a person truly doesn't like something but takes the diplomatic route for appearance sake, I do find it increasingly harder to believe that anyone who did grow up on the great artists from jazz and blues to rock, pop and soul, can sit and listen to what is being released these days without, at least secretly, thinking, "This is absolute shit." And no, I don't just mean the pop girl superstars. It's not all on the Duas, Taylors and Chappells. I mean all of it, from indie rock, pop, and punk, to hip hop and dancehall, to alt country and back. All of it. I can't be the only one who feels this way. And I feel no need to be diplomatic.

Prince stopped making good records 20 years before he died, by the way. No, really. I swear. Play those records released between 2000-2015. He is still a genius. And I miss him. But his last 15 records stink. See? That wasn't hard.

This, on the other hand, is hard. 

In early 2023, Elvis Costello performed ten shows at NYC's Gramercy Theater. Tickets were impossible and those that were lucky, had to shell out as much as $600 a ticket, if you call that lucky. Others paid a few thousand a ticket. I have audio recordings of eight of those ten shows. They are unlistenable because Elvis, a musical hero of mine, can no longer sing. It started soon after his cancer surgery. And while on certain nights since, his voice impoves a bit, his ability to sing live for any stretch of time, is limited. And I don't think it's a matter of opinion. I've been listening to music for 60 years. Am I not qualified to notice this? His singing is fucking flat! He is off most of the time. It's a struggle, a sad reality. But, ask anyone who paid $1200 and they'll tell you it was the greatest night of their lives. Good for them! But I don't have $1200 to ignore the elephant in the room. I don't love Elvis any less. As a matter of fact, I've been reluctant to write about this for a year and a half because it felt like betrayal. But how can thousands of concert attendees pretend this doesn't happen night after night? That he is still performing and still making fantastic records is the most important thing here. I just don't understand people NOT hearing it.

I know people who have trashed all Bruce Springsteen records since "Nebraska." Yes, of course, some of them will dutifully recognize "The Rising" and "Wrecking Ball," even if when pressured, couldn't hum a note off of either. These same people also think Paul McCartney's solo career ended after "Band On The Run." But these same people will praise some new indie hot shot who will be an indie "Where Is He Now" soon enough, if the moment feels right. "Gotta stay in good with kids." I have never listened to music this way. I don't have a bag full of pat answers about the music I love or don't love.

I can only speak from personal experience, and of course much of that experience comes from you, on these pages. Yes, there are some readers who will not hesitate calling some of my favorite artists of all time garbage. It happens almost every time I mention Led Zeppelin, Todd Rundgren, David Bowie, Queen, Roxy Music, Rush, The Beasties Boys, or Motorhead. That's just for starters. Yet, there are many who, even on a blog devoted to these types of discussions, will give the old "Just like what you like. Leave the kids alone. Why waste time criticizing what people like?" 

Why? 

Well, it is a case by case situation. 

First and foremost, if millions of teenagers and their parents are really digging Taylor Swift, why do anything to stop them? We need as much joy in this world as possible. Taylor Swift and The Swifties, in and of themselves, can only be a good thing. I am all for them. But that is not why Burning Wood exists. It is here to have a discussion about music, songwriting, record making, and artists that deserve air time along with artists that don't. And if you come out swinging, defending Taylor Swift because your niece loves her, but then find the time to trash Todd Rundgren and Roxy Music, well, that's the real music discussion. It's not "Who cares? Just like what you like." We are all very capable of discussing the ins and outs of music, if you are up for it. That's been the whole point of this place for the last 16 years. 

Lenny Kaye said this about The Beatles, "That still, after these many years and maddening familiarity with each of their songs, they are capable of surprise; the revealing scope and sophistication of their musical imagination; the way each personality jigsaws together for an all-too-brief decade, and then the ineveitable solo albums, individual brilliance showing how much they relied on each other to make a four-ever magic."

This will never happen again. We know that. But it's almost a guarantee that it will never even come remotely close with the casual acceptance of inferior work, just because it is easier to not care.

I want you to change my mind about Sturgill Simpson as much as I want to change your mind about Prince Buster. 

"Who cares?" won't do. Sorry.






66 comments:

Cleveland Jeff said...

"As an art form, do we make more excuses for music than any other?"
I'm not so sure about this- lots of people and critics seem to think that movies are not as good as they used to be, too many inane sequels, etc. Television has gotten mundane as the same amount of talent produces 400 times as much content, although I don't really keep up with TV critics. TV seems to parallel music with mass-produced "reality" shows being the equivalent of auto tune and synthesized crap. But there's also some fine shows, like Shrinking. I don't know much about theatre and the visual arts, so I can't comment there. There is a lot of great music being made, and some of it by young people. There is also a lot of trash. The seventies (my favorite era) produced a boatload of dreck along with the good stuff. And even some of the good stuff sounds pretty lame these days.
Sloan, Dr. Dog, Gomez, Spoon, Fantastic Cat, Wet Leg, Del Amitri, Calexico, Drive-by Truckers, Kelly Willis, Heather Myles, Jon Cleary, Lemon Twiggs, London Suede, Nick Lowe, Proclaimers, Robin McKelle, Seratones, Vampire Weekend, Stanton Moore, P. Hux, The Chicks, Bette Smith, X, Aimee Mann, Shelby Lynn, Sheryl Crow, JD McPherson, Madeleine Peyroux, lots of new jazz. Are things really that bad?

Sal Nunziato said...

25 of your 30 artists, Jeff, made their first records over 20 years ago.

Shriner said...

OK -- for clarification of discussion purposes before I weigh in -- what time frame are we looking to discuss when looking at new artists (or recent releases by legacy artists for that matter?) The last 10 years (which feels like an eternity in the music biz honestly...) The last 5?

buzzbabyjesus said...

There's a lot to process in your post. Here are a few thoughts.

I've seen Elvis Costello 3 times. Twice in one week of 1978, with Rockpile and Mink Deville opening. Terrific shows. What a voice he had! Third time was Central Park Summer Stage 2018. I couldn't wait for it to be over. I could have sung it better.
I wonder if the internet, fans, and trolls have incentivized reviewers to go easy to avoid hate mail, getting doxed, and bullied.
I enjoy Anthony Fantano's reviews on YouTube. I don't always agree with him, but he pulls no punches. Post Malone's latest got a 4 out of 10 a few days ago.
Paul was fine through "Venus And Mars". Every album after that probably has at least one good one, although I can't say for certain because I haven't heard many of them besides "Flaming Pie"(Souvenir), and "New"(Appreciate).

I read movie reviews in The New Yorker. They don't love everything.

I'm always on the lookout for new music, and "the kids" often find me artists and genres of interest. Vaporwave and all its sub genres for instance.

Thanks, Sal, for Pokey LeFarge.

There is a lot of good music out there, but little of it is in the top 40, and I don't know how the new records will age.

Blame the internet culture?

Michael Giltz said...

If we've ALWAYS gone easier on music, maybe this argument makes sense. It's less work. Not just streaming today. But a three minute song and you're done. It's not a big investment in time or money so it's not as big a deal. Ehh, that was ok. A book? Lots of time. A movie? A Good 90 minutes, at least and if you go to the movie theater, more. A play? Expensive! But music is more disposable? That doesn't work when talking about passionate fans like the folks at Burning Wood and why THEY would cut slack.

Michael Giltz said...

Paul was fine through Venus and Mars (1975!). He's trolling you, Sal! :)

Cleveland Jeff said...

Yes, Sal, they mostly started in the 90's. But they aren't legacy artists like Dylan, Young, or Raitt (who by the way, has made three of her best in the last 20 years). Hey, how about the other five! I'm fine with being wrong about this, and I don't listen to new music on the radio anyway, but the last 20 years isn't new enough? If that's the case, I'm not really qualified to discuss.
BBJ, you really should listen to Chaos and Creation In The Backyard. It's from 2006, and it's outstanding.

cmealha said...

I think the problem is that it's not appropriate to criticize anyone anymore. You can say that anyone is fat, stupid, lazy etc or you'll get cancelled. Coupled with the fact that the guardians at the gate have disappeared means that everyone can throw something at the wall and see if it sticks. Being able to create and distribute content as easily as we can today means that the audiences for books, music, movies are super-fragmented and everyone is super-defensive about their little niche and refuse to knock it in any way. As you pointed out, all albums reviewed in Mojo, Uncut, etc are either very good or excellent. That can't be right. Criticism is important to being able to distinguish the wheat from the chaff. It's frustrating.

There is good music to be found but it's sprinkled amongst some much crap. There used to be so many layers that would filter the bad stuff out (A&R, radio stations, etc) but those barriers are gone and anyone with a computer is a rock star, writer, broadcaster. It's all too much.

I've liked a number of new acts like Taylor Swift. I think the string of albums from 1989 were really good. "Tortured Poets" was crap but, much like Elvis' inability to sing, no one will say so for fear of offending. I don't think criticism is offensive if done purposefully and without vitriol. It's important feedback for the creative process.

So keep on criticizing, even at the risk of offending people, because that's the only way to determine what is good and what is crap.

kevin m said...

As someone who will be having surgery for prostate cancer in a few weeks, losing my singing voice is the least of my concerns and something my doctors have never addressed. (NB- I should be fine if all goes well) So not sure if Elvis' prostate cancer is responsible for his singing deterioration.

Chris Collins said...

I agree with you in general even if we occasionally disagree about the details. Critics need to be more Lester Bangs (without the toxic personal stuff) and less gushing fanboy/fangirl. I think we disagree on Taylor, for instance. I love some of her stuff. I think "Folklore" was great and she KILLS live. But her new album does nothing for me. Having critical thinking skills does not make me less of a fan. I worship Prince, but I fully agree with you about his last 20 years. I still passionately love his music.

On a slightly different subject- I happen to love Dua Lipa, but I want more from the music scene than just Dua Lipa. Imagine if Gloria Gaynor was ALL anyone talked about in 1978. She would go from being a fun pop singer with a great single to being a pretty divisive figure. What I'm saying is that the pop princesses are the figure of ire now partially because they carry too much weight. I'd LOVE to find a good indie band I can't get enough of right now. I'd love to find a great rock band! A great hip hop artist. A great country artist (although I love Jade Jackson). The shelves seem bare. And when we have our 400th pop princess in a row taking over the cultural conversation, things feel a bit stale.

Sal Nunziato said...

Let me address a few things so far: a time frame? Let's say last 15 years. But, let's also try to avoid "what about this guy" and "what about that guy?" I already said in the post that it's NOT ALL bad. And highlighting a few good songs or one good record is not what I am talking about. I am talking about music criticism in general, which I think a few points made by cmealha seemed to nail.

Jeff,
When someone asks me what new music I like, I still say Wilco," because that felt fresh at the time and few since have had such a deep and diverse catalogue. Chris Collins makes more of the point with "I'd LOVE to find a good indie band I can't get enough of right now. I'd love to find a great rock band! A great hip hop artist. A great country artist (although I love Jade Jackson). The shelves seem bare."

Sal Nunziato said...

Kevin, sorry to hear about the surgery, and happy to hear that you will be fine. I didn't say Elvis' cancer was the cause of his losing his voice. I just noticed the deterioration when he started touring again after the surgery. One may have nothing to do with other.

Sal Nunziato said...

And BBJ, three of my top 6 Macca records are all years after Venus & Mars. "Flowers In The Dirt," "Flaming Pie" and as Jeff mentioned, "Chaos & Creation," which is my #3 after "McCartney" and "Ram."

Michael Giltz said...

CMEALHA -- not only is it ok to criticize people it's much easier and vitriolic thanks to the web. And criticizing also involves criticizing what other people said. Cue the list of the many "cancelled" acts who have gone on to win Grammys and Emmys and commercial success. Here's a thought. Musical criticism in the press sucks because the press is dying. Print is literally dead and nothing has stepped up to replace it. People who used to get paid to write a review now blog for free. Good stuff can be found (like Burning Wood) but music mags and a freelance world that could support free thinkers like Christgau and Lester Bangs are long, long gone. As for serious music buffs, I don't know. Maybe shrugging your shoulders over some new music you don't care for is...nice? Like, "I don't get it but whatever." It'll sort itself out in 20 or 30 years like it always does? Not acceptable maybe when one cares so passionately about it. I'd just rather passionately share my enthusiasms than my disses. Oh and I definitely find other people have NO INTEREST if I disagree with them on movies and the like. If I don't want to second their love for whatever, they don't get why I would chime in. Why so mean? (Which gets back to his cancel culture, or my be nice culture.) That's not true here but it's a thing. And I'd def rather spend my energy cheering the stuff I love. Life is toxic enough.

Christine said...

This made me die laughing: "raccoon friendly pop-up venue in Bushwick". But doesn't that say it all? This is an era of creative crap getting in the way of whatever great music is out there today, and for some reason, there isn't enough criticism of the crap. I guess it's up to you and your blog to start a movement of some kind. No pressure.....

steve simels said...

A lot to process here. But anybody who thinks the current state of commercial pop music compares favorably on any level to the great years of the second half of the 20th century is probably being deliberately disingenuous.

And don’t even get me started on contemporary films.😎

Sal Nunziato said...

Thank you. I often wonder if anyone laughs when I am trying to be funny.

Sal Nunziato said...

"not only is it ok to criticize people it's much easier and vitriolic thanks to the web."

It's okay and easier for Anonymous to criticize username "crockman" or username "fishface" to criticize "remboy106." That's different than David Fricke calling a shitty Wilco record shitty. (Or any artist.) And speaking openly and honestly about a piece of work, whether favorably or unfavorably shouldn't be on the same level at what is making life toxic. A intelligent discussion about why a record stinks should be healthy and informative, not toxic.

Allan Rosenberg said...

To rift off the old saying "that you are only as good as your competition", "it's only as good as what the listeners demand of if it!".

Captain Al

Shriner said...

So let me offer a contrary opinion: We are (for the most part) a bunch of old farts here. *WE HAVE* heard a lot of the popular music that came before today's current swath of pop music. No question. But the youth of America *has not* -- unless it's used in a commercial or a highly successful movie (think how much the Guardians of the Galaxy movies brought back songs like "Come and Get Your Love" or "Mr. Blue Sky" to the current consciousness.) This is not their fault. If you listen to something like Dua Lipa's "Future Nostalgia" -- without knowing the songs that she's borrowing from -- you'll love it! That's because her producers, etc, know what they did with that album and pulled from good, hooky stuff. So newer artists that "the kids" like are because that's all that "the kids" know about. Yes, there is now an infinite amount of music at your fingertips -- it's incredible! -- but I think it's not unreasonable for reviewers to compare current music to everything else that's current and not say "Well, if "Revolver" is a 10/10 album, then everything else is a 2/10 because it doesn't measure up". But, as Dennis Miller says, "that's just my opinion. I could be wrong."

Noam said...

We all know the feeling you get when hear something fantastic, on the radio or wherever, and you know you have to find out who and what it is. As people who live for music and have listened to a lot of it, that muscle is solid and reliable for us. The fact that it rarely happens any more has little to do with age, and more to do with what passes for pop music and what is termed "R&B" these days. That is to say, much of it lacks melody and/or melodic progression. Record a lawn sprinkler drum track and talk over it sounding like you just woke up with a hangover. A week later it's on the radio, getting 5 millions streams, and a week after that it's forgotten. This isn't old man lawn-guarding stuff. It's where we are with popular music in 2024.

I appreciate Swift for positive role-model-ness, but Laura Nyro wrote songs that stuck in your head the first time you heard them. I wasn't necessarily a fan when I was ten, I've never bought her records, but I can conjure up a half dozen of her melodies in my head at a moment's notice. There's nothing like that on a Taylor album - just sing-songy, same-as-it-ever-was, three or four-note jingles that don't move. I guess the appeal is the soap opera lyric stuff. It sure can't be the music, sorry kids.

I guess next up, let's pretend Oasis isn't reductive horseshit. We'll party like it's1999.

soundsource said...

First of all Amen from the choir (as in the preached to kind) I don't have anything pithy to add other than always thoughtful and for me often in agreement (not always, most often). As for Sturgill it ain't about the records (at least for me) it was about that live performance, again at least for me and I'm standing by it and I bet ya didn't watch it. Now I'm off to attend the Kamala for Prez rally in Savannah. Hoping they have an alta kaker section.

soundsource said...

oh and know I'll go back and read the comments

Sal Nunziato said...

Shriner,
Here's a question- at what point did the younger generation stop caring about musical history? There are countless stories and photos of Elvis with old blues and gospel records in his hands. Beatles, Stones--all listened to Howlin' Wolf, Carl Perkins, Chuck Berry etc.. 70's bands listened to Stones and Beatles AND the blues and soul guys before them. The grunge era was high on punk and new wave, as well as Zeppelin, Sabbath, etc. Now, who do Dua, Chappell, Taylor, Billie, et al cite as influences? Legit question. I don't follow these people so I truly don't know. But from the music I've heard, it seems very shallow. Praising the producers for giving these women hit singles is one thing. Not calling out these hit singles as anything more than generic pop product is what I am talking about. This is just the pop girls. I wonder if this could apply to other genres. Who are these artists listening to that made them want to do the same? Yeah, you're right, most records will be a 2/10 compared to "Revolver." But do any of these pop records rate at least a 7/10 when compared to anything but their own genre?

Sal Nunziato said...

One of the Pet Shop Boys, can't recall if it was Chris or Neil, said something like, "Taylor is fine. It sounds great. But where are the hits? Where's Billie Jean Or Thriller?" That's how I feel and evidently, that's how you feel. Every time a Taylor record is recommended by someone I respect, I listen with new ears. And when it's over, I have no idea what I listened to.

buzzbabyjesus said...

I like Flaming Pie, and Some of Flowers In The Dirt. I'll have to check out Chaos and Creation.

ScenicRuns said...

Wow! How many cans of worms have you got on that shelf?! I'm partly in the "there's still plenty of good music" camp, but, to me, the industry (production, promotion, response, all of it) has changed so drastically, and not for the better, that any discussion of musics past and present is moot. It is so much harder to find appealing music in a world of algorithms smarter than ourselves. There are few places left to enjoy discussion of music. There are hardly any Bangs' or Christgaus to push our buttons and provide framework for their opinions. It is a singles industry now - don't search for career arcs or throughlines in songwriting. And those of us who have a long history of music fandom have pretty much lost the hormonal response kids still find (somehow!) in modern pop music, which, let's face it, was always designed to elicit a more visceral response ever since a truck driver shook his junk on tv for the first time.

Sal Nunziato said...

@soundsource, I mentioned Sturgill but could have mentioned anyone. My point wasn't about not liking Sturgill, it was about being able to say "I don't like Sturgill," hoping those that do will talk about why they do. And I did watch some of it, but a) I don't enjoy concert videos and b) It's hard for me to ignore Sturgill's vocal delivery which is more like a mumble. I know it's about the band, but he is still a distraction for me.

soundsource said...

understood and I know you're not a fan of "the concert video" so it was a harder hill to get you to climb. and I did realize the whole point was bigger than that last little mention. As always it made you think and just plain interesting,

Sal Nunziato said...

"Wow! How many cans of worms have you got on that shelf?!"
Haha. That's hilarious. (Oh, I've got plenty for everyone!)

Shriner said...

I've heard Taylor Swift (who is the oldest of those 4, I think?) gush about Carole King's Tapestry many times. Chappell Roan says among her influences are Lorde and Kate Bush (which seems obvious to me and she's said that in interviews), does that mean she needs to track down Kate's influences to write new music? Even if she did, does that mean she's going to write songs as great as Kate Bush? No. (Who could, honestly? KT is a once-in-a-lifetime talent to me.) But it doesn't mean any of the artists you mention have to go back yet another generation or a generation before that to study music history and composition of the myriad of I-IV-V blues chord progressions etc. And, i think "pop music" is generally in a genre of it's own -- it's frequently dumb, fun music with little-to-no lyrical depth -- and that's fine (I mean a lot of music is like that, let's be honest, who among us hasn't heard the "change/rearrange" rhyming couplet in hundreds of songs...) Will Chappelle Roan stand the test of time? I have no idea. I'd be surprised if she wasn't a one-hit-wonder. I listened to the album and it was not for me (unlike "1989" or Olivia Rodrigo's two albums), but I could see the fun in it for others. Not every songwriter is a master lyricist like Bob Dylan, but I don't expect them to be, either.

Sal Nunziato said...

"But it doesn't mean any of the artists you mention have to go back yet another generation or a generation before that to study music history and composition of the myriad of I-IV-V blues chord progressions etc."

All of those artists I mentioned didn't go back to get schooled before they wrote and recorded their music. They were listening on their own. The music called to them. It wasn't home work. They didn't take a class. They saved money, bought and traded records. Jagger brought his records to Keef's house, just like I brought my records to cmealha's house, or my cousin's house. That's what I am talking about.

It's math...kinda. Chuck and Muddy = Beatles and Stones. Zep and Sabbath and the Sex Pistols and Dead Boys = Pearl Jam and Nirvana. What equals Taylor and Dua?

I couldn't agree with you more, re: pop music. Dumb and fun, earworms and beats and great singalongs choruses. But how long after "Yummy Yummy Yummy" and "Indian Giver" have you had enough bubblegum?

Anonymous said...

I’m reading Robyn Hitchcock’s recent memoir 1967 where he talks about his childhood and the impact of music in his unique way. Here’s a short passage that you might find as sad and as telling as I do.

“Through the amber of sixty years the Beatles glow ever brighter: they mean as much to me now as a white-haired pensioner as they did to the ten-year-old 70 percent–grown me. To me, and to millions of other people about whom I know nothing except that we’ll all be gone soon.”

In regard to Elvis Costello’s voice, I’ve never thought it was a great instrument, so it didn’t bother me too much when I saw him tour in 2023. The band was great and it was mostly a fun night of live rock and roll.

Yes, a lot of pop music often gets a pass when it should be tossed in the bin. The only time I hear any of the current hits is when I’m in the gym. It’s all vapid crap. I can’t tell one act (can’t call them artists when they are artless) from another. But I often felt the same way when hearing 70’s or 80’s or 90’s top 40 on the radio. Most of that was crap, too.

- Paul in DK

Michael Giltz said...

By the way, what is the artwork at the top of this post? It's freaking me out!

Michael Giltz said...

Maybe we're just so used to the cliche of the old fogey shaking their fist at the noise kids listen to these days that we are wary of falling into the same trap and looking clueless and old. So we cut new music some slack when we shouldn't.

Sal Nunziato said...

Depending on who you ask, Jobriath's debut was either an overlooked masterwork, comparable to Bowie's "Ziggy Stardust," or a laughable piece of crap.

Michael Giltz said...

Oh. My. God. The Wikipedia entry on Jobriath is the most entertaining thing I've read in ages. I'm not surprised there's a documentary about him. I just surprised no one has made a biopic. Yet. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jobriath

steve simels said...

Jobriath? A) I saw him showcase the album at the Bottom Line at the height of the hype, and it was profoundly embarrassing. B) After his career cratered, I saw him several times at a piano bar down the street from my apartment on 13th street where he was reduced to playing Cole Porter songs. He seemed much happier.

Sjm said...

By the way, Rick Beato has a good video about the current state of popular music. His thesis is that music has become too easy to make and consume. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1bZ0OSEViyo&t=643s

Anonymous said...

It seems that songwriting may be a dying art. I get the sense that much popular music is constructed in the studio rather than written by a visionary artist. And all the digital wizardry allows amateurs to sound polished when they’ve not actually put in the work. I really want to love new music the way I used to, but too much of the new music isn’t bringing me anything to love.

Anonymous said...

all Paul is good imo

Honest Ed said...

Erm.... does music get an easy ride? Now? I can't really comment since I don't really read music press anymore. I have been reading this New Zealand twitter feed where a guy has been posting the UK's NME and Melody Maker from the late 70's to mid 90's - a period which spans my youth (and youth adjacent) and they were pretty damn scathing on lots of music. It's kind of funny to read them being so damning of stuff which has stood the test of time while championing dross that instantly got forgotten. That said, there's always a degree of posturing in British music writing. And it's also kind of sad seeing all those musicians who thought that because they made the front cover of the NME only to crash and burn into obscurity. I kind of take the point of view of not being too damning of stuff I don't like. Isn't that to some degree maturity. Not all of it, though, some of it I do slate.

As for Elvis... I saw him in Scotland 8 years ago and thought his voice was really struggling. But then saw him 2 years ago and thought it was better. Not great and certainly poorer than it used to be but not as bad as I had seen (or heard) it. Perhaps on a full tour he quickly works out what he can still do and tailors his set to that whereas when he tries a career retrospective thing, which I believe the NY stand was, he's doing songs that his voice simply ain't up to any more. And that pouts further strain on his voice for the stuff he still can do. He's playing near me next week... I was tempted but this has put mn off a bit!

buzzbabyjesus said...

I'm listening to "Press To Play" and it's much better than I expected.

buzzbabyjesus said...

I don't troll Sal, and said I'm pretty sure all of his albums have at least one good song on them.

buzzbabyjesus said...

I've always heard "Press To Play" is one of his worst, but I like what I played before I pulled up "Chaos and Creation", and it's sounding good too.

Sal Nunziato said...

I would recommend 10 others before Press To Play, but if you're enjoying it that's great. "Chaos" is perfect to me. Age appropriate and filled with lots of Beatle-isms, too. Both "London Town" and "Back To The Egg" are very underrated.

Shriner said...

I can never have enough bubblegum. :-) I can't speak to Dua as I've only heard Future Nostalgia, but it's obvious Taylor was influenced by (and therefore must have listened to) a myriad of country artists (initially) and singer/songwriter albums (later -- or maybe even concurrently) as her style has progressed as she's gotten older. I don't think you are saying that Taylor (etc) just sprung out of nowhere without having heard a note of music in their lifetimes, are you? Sure, I guess that could happen where an unscrupulous music producer sees a pretty girl walking down the street and says "hey, baby, I can make you a star!" -- but apart from Samantha Fox, I can't think of anybody off-hand like that. :-)

Sal Nunziato said...

"I don't think you are saying that Taylor (etc) just sprung out of nowhere without having heard a note of music in their lifetimes, are you?"

No, absolutely not. I am not singling anyone out, actually. But I do believe that at some point, the history started to matter less. It makes sense. If a teenager starts listening to music in 2024, it's unlikely that the first records he'll want to buy are Otis Redding or Kinks records. Not impossible, just unlikely. But even as recent as the 90's, you could hear influences in bands. In a few years, some new pop idol might be thinking, " I want to be like Dua Lipa."

And I think the main issue I have with Taylor is the disparity between her material and the OUTRAGEOUSLY OVER THE TOP praise. It's not THAT amazing. Sorry.

Shriner said...

I will offer a contrary opinion -- a lot of music written in the 60s, 70s, 80s, 90s -- is a bunch of shit. There are probably only a *handful* of truly visionary artists, so if you hold music to such a high standard that everything new you hear has to be the level of "Revolver", "Graceland", "Dark Side of the Moon", "Exile...", "Songs In The Key of Life", etc -- how can you ever enjoy any new music? I love a whole bunch of newer artists and bands, but I wouldn't classify any of them as "visionary" by any means, nor would I expect there to be a mass of them.

Sal Nunziato said...

"There are probably only a *handful* of truly visionary artists"

While thay may be true, it's not always about being a visionary. Let's take one genre- R&B/SOUL.
You've got Top Tier:
Marvin, Stevie, Al Green, Aretha, Otis, Smokey, James, Sam & Dave, etc,

Then next level:
Irma Thomas, Carla Thomas, Percy Sledge, Eddie Floyd, William Bell

Third Level:
O.V. Wright, Joe Simon, Candi Staton, Barbara Lynn, James Carr, Clarence Carter, James & Bobby Purify

I could go. The depth is ridiculous. And I would put anyone in the third level above any Top Tier R&B singer of today. Where is the depth in current R&B/Soul music? You don't need to be a visionary. Boyz II Men and Mary J. Blige made a career out of singing off key. Even unknown chitlin' circuit artists found on obscure UK soul compilations have better voices.

steve simels said...

Oh, and may I just say, Sal that this comment of yours --

"And I think the main issue I have with Taylor is the disparity between her material and the OUTRAGEOUSLY OVER THE TOP praise. It's not THAT amazing. Sorry."

is exactly what's been bugging me about her all this time. Thank you

Shriner said...

“But even as recent as the 90's, you could hear influences in bands. In a few years, some new pop idol might be thinking, " I want to be like Dua Lipa."

The 90s — to today — is 30 years (depending where you count). If Dua Lipa is still popular 30 years from now, I’ll eat my hat (well, we’ll probably all be dead by then, but that’s beside the point.)

There will always be “this year’s girl” — Sabrina Carpenter is probably the current example that obviously jumps out. I wouldn’t pin my thoughts on the music industry or songwriting as a whole based on that ever cycling phenomenon of the latest Debbie Boone, Stacy Q or Meredith Brooks


“And I think the main issue I have with Taylor is the disparity between her material and the OUTRAGEOUSLY OVER THE TOP praise. It's not THAT amazing. Sorry.”


And I can’t quite comprehend the phenomenon that is Taylor Swift either, honestly, because while I enjoy many of her records, she doesn’t move me like she (obviously) does others. I watched her two concert videos and she clearly puts on a good — and very, very long — show (and I think that’s great that she can do this for her fans.) And I can't quite comprehend why it bugs some people either other than " is so much better and they don't get the same level of publicity!" That's a tale as old as time.

Brian said...

(I accidentally posted earlier as Anonymous).

Maybe I shouldn’t have used the word visionary. But as Sal says, it’s a matter of depth. There has always been bad popular music and there always will be. Not all the music that I loved from my youth was incredibly popular. I was usually seeking out the new thing and exploring back catalogues of the more well-known artists that I enjoyed.

Here's a list of some of the albums released in 1975. You will be familiar with all of them.

10cc – The Original Soundtrack
Aerosmith – Toys in the Attic
Bad Company – Straight Shooter
Bob Dylan – Blood on the Tracks
Brian Eno – Another Green World
Bruce Springsteen – Born to Run
David Bowie – Young Americans
The Eagles – One of These Nights
Earth, Wind & Fire – That’s the Way of the World
Electric Light Orchestra – Face the Music
Elton John – Captain Fantastic and the Brown Dirt Cowboy
Fleetwood Mac – Fleetwood Mac
Heart – Dreamboat Annie
Jeff Beck – Blow by Blow
Jefferson Starship – Red Octopus
Joni Mitchell – The Hissing of Summer Lawns
Led Zeppelin – Physical Graffiti
Paul Simon – Still Crazy After All These Years
Pink Floyd – Wish You Were Here
Queen – A Night at the Opera
Roxy Music – Sirens
Steely Dan – Katy Lied
The Who – The Who by Numbers
Wille Nelson – Red Headed Stranger
Wings – Venus and Mars
ZZ Top – Fandango!

That’s just one year. And it didn’t have to be 1975. I could have picked other years from the 1960s and 1970s. Is there a comparable list from any year in the last fifteen? I don’t think so, but I would prefer to be wrong.

Pete said...

There's something about music. We consume it differently than we consume movies or books. Which is why we can generally agree on good/great/lousy movies and books, but one person can think "Glory Of Love" by Peter Cetera is a beautifully crafted and performed piece of pop music and another can think it's a horrid piece of shlock, and they're probably both right. I am in the latter camp, AND YET I hear it today and my mind goes back to the summer of '86 and I get those pangs of nostalgia and I actually wound up playing Cetera's album from whence "Glory Of Love" comes and you know, it's not a bad piece of manufactured '80s pop. Am I apologizing for it? You can call it that. But we experience music with our hearts and our lizard brains in a way we don't with any other kind of art or pop culture. So I don't know if "apologizing" is the best word for it. Maybe we're just better able to meet music on its own terms rather than the empirical standards of Good and Not Good. I don't know.

And as the father of a Taylor Swift-obsessed 14 year old girl, I'm thrilled that Taylor was the gateway drug that made my daughter a music obsessive in general. And definitely, living with a Swifty has made me appreciate her music more. It also made me realize that there really is something to the oft-decried (by our host) theory that a generation's music is made for THAT GENERATION. I really like approximately 963 of the 8,000 Taylor Swift songs in existence, but my daughter listens to them obsessively, parses the lyrics, etc., just like I did with R.E.M. and the generation before me did with the Bob Dylan and so on and so forth. Today's music speaks to her in a way older music doesn't — not yet, anyway. Although she's familiar with totally random oldies like "Pop Musik" by M, because they're popular on TikTok. Which is derided by today's oldsters much the way MTV was derided back in the '80s. But TikTok has broadened her musical horizons much as MTV broadened mine. So who am I to judge?

Anyway, I'll stop now!

Sal Nunziato said...

Beat this:
https://burnwoodtonite.blogspot.com/2022/12/my-favorite-records-of-year.html

Sal Nunziato said...

1977:
Elvis Costello- My Aim Is True
The Clash- S/T
David Bowie- Low
Television- Marquee Moon
Steely Dan- Aja
Fleetwood Mac- Rumours
Sex Pistols- Never Mind The Bollocks
Pete Townshend/Ronnie Lane- Rough Mix
The Damned- Damned Damned Damned
Bob Marley & The Wailers- Exodus
The Dead Boys- Young, Loud & Snotty
Heartbreakers- L.A.M.F.
Iggy Pop- The Idiot
Pink Floyd- Animals
Ultravox- S/T
The Congos- Heart of The Congos
David Bowie- Heroes
Cheap Trick- S/T
Culture- Two Sevens Clash
Meat Loaf- Bat Out Of Hell
Talking Heads -'77
Brian Eno- Before & After Science
The Stranglers- Rattus Norvegicus
The Jam- In The City
Wire- Pink Flag
Queen- News Of The World
Saturday Night Fever- O.S.T.
Rush- A Farewell To Kings
ELO- Out Of The Blue
Peter Gabriel- S/T
Peter Tosh- Equal Rights
Ramones- Rocket To Russia
Billy Joel- The Stranger
Tom Waits- Foreign Affairs
Graham Parker & The Rumour- Stick To Me
Utopia- Oops Wrong Planet
Thin Lizzy- Bad Reputation
Bryan Ferry- In Your Mind
Iggy Pop- Lust For Life
Junior Murvin- Police & Thieves
Weather Report- Heavy Weather

Shriner said...

OK -- BUT: How many of those were *popular* albums at the time? Bat out of Hell, Aja, Saturday Night Fever, News of the World and Rumors? I have a pretty good list of my favorite albums of 2024 and I don't think any of them are "popular" bands.

Sal Nunziato said...

I don't understand the question. *popular* as in "pop music" or *popular* as in enjoyed and admired? If it's the latter, I'd say almost all. Maybe those reggae records needed some years to go down as classics of the genre. But there was no internet, no MTV, no YouTube. You had print and radio, and every single one of those records were in record stores and bought, with tours behind most and strong FM airplay.

I said this a dozen comments ago-- every one of us can pick our faves of any year. "What about this or that?" That's hardly the point. I think Swag- Catch All is the best power pop record ever! Who cares? It sold 60 copies. It's hard to argue with Brian's list or this list and probably any list from 1966-1979. 1980-1990 might still be impressive. But 2000-2024? Never going to come close to the quality. And I say that with the utmost confidence and absolutely no research! :)

Sal Nunziato said...

Oh and Shriner, I wasn't saying "Who Cares? to your 2024 list. It was a "who cares" about Swag.

buzzbabyjesus said...

Chaos and Creation sounds terrific. I'll need a vinyl copy.

Anonymous said...

Was popular music "better" (more great stuff) in say the 1970s than today? I'd say absolutely. (And I can still come up with 30+ albums of really good music every year.) Do we go easier on our kids music and the pop music of today? In a desire not to look clueless like earlier generations ("What's this rap nonsense? They're not even singing! That's not music!") I'd say yes we do.

Neal T said...

is that true about the Swag record being ur fave PP record ever?

Anonymous said...

Re: Elvis Costello

I hadn't seen him in quite some time but I always enjoyed him. This summer he did a tour with Daryl Hall as co-headliner. Since it had been over ten years, I got tickets to see him. I'm not fond of co-headlining shows in general. It shortens both act's sets. I kinda like Daryl's TV show but he's not anybody I would shell out bucks to see in concert. I was there to see Elvis and I figured Hall would be tolerable. He wasn't. Hall's voice was shot and the band was phoning it in. It was pretty lifeless to say the least. Dead on arrival.

Then came Elvis. His voice had no power. He wasn't on key. He was completely off meter with the rest of the band. I waited for it to get better but it got worse. Nevertheless, Elvis looked like he thought he was killing it. It was weird. And pathetic. My only thought was "What happened to this guy?" It was horrible. A fuckin' train wreck. I had to get out of there. It was too depressing. Does he have Alzheimer's?

I had purchased tickets to his upcoming Vegas show. I sold them for half-price. It looks like his performing days are over. At least for me. Never again.

The most depressing thing about it was that the crowd didn't seem to notice the difference. That kind of shit really pisses me off. I left before the show was over partly because Elvis was sucking, but mainly because the audience was acting like it was the best thing they'd ever seen.

Had a similar experience with Arthur Lee & Love (Baby Lemonade). I saw him about ten times when he made the comeback. Most of the time he was good or great. But a couple of times it was unimaginably bad, not by any fault of the band, but entirely Arthur's. At both of these shows the crowd was giving him standing O's. It was the Pick of the Week. It even got a good review. It was too important to suck.

That kind of shit drives me nuts.

VR

Sal Nunziato said...

I really do love it.

Anonymous said...

I think that a good future blog post would be -- everybody name their 20 favorite albums from the period of 2000-2024 and we'll see what comes up. :-)

Anonymous said...

Challenge accepted. My thoughts might change, but my top albums from the past 24 years.... At the top is probably Illinoise by Sufjan Stevens

RICHARD THOMPSON -- Ship To Shore (2024 work-in-progress list)
ELVIS COSTELLO -- The Boy Named If (2022)
FLOATING POINTS AND PHAROAH SANDERS -- Promises (2021)
A GIRL CALLED EDDY -- Been Around (2020)
iLe -- Almadura (2019)
KAMASI WASHINGTON -- Heaven And Earth (2018)
CÉCILE MCLORIN SALVANT -- Dreams And Daggers (2017)
DAVID BOWIE -- Blackstar and Lazarus ep (2016 -- tie)
LEONARD COHEN -- You Want It Darker (2016 -- tie)
SUFJAN STEVENS -- Carrie and Lowell (2015)
KAISER CHIEFS -- Education, Education, Education and War (2014)
JANELLE MONAE -- The Electric Lady (2013)
RUMER -- Seasons Of My Soul/Boys Don't Cry (2012)
FLEET FOXES -- Hopelessness Blues (2011)
THE TALLEST MAN ON EARTH -- The Wild Hunt (2010)
THE AVETT BROTHERS -- I And Love And You (2009)
WILLIE NELSON AND WYNTON MARSALIS -- Two Men With The Blues (2008)
WYNTON MARSALIS -- Standards and Ballads (2008 tie)
SHARON JONES AND THE DAP KINGS -- 100 Days 100 Nights (2007)
CORINNE BAILEY RAE -- Corinne Bailey Rae (2006)
SUFJAN STEVENS -- (Come On Feel The) Illinoise (2005)
GREEN DAY -- American Idiot (2004)
THE WHITE STRIPES -- Elephant (2003) (sorry, Sal :)
NORAH JONES -- Come Away With Me (2002)
MANU CHAO -- Proxima Estacion: Esperanza (2001)
EMINEM -- The Marshall Mathers LP (2000)